This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Now that I have your attention, I won’t disappoint you. Well, maybe just a little, depending on how you view (or refuse to view) women’s breasts.
A New Jersey Appellate Court has ruled that a woman named Phoenix Feeley (see photo inset) may not go topless in the bucolic seashore town of Spring Lake.
More importantly, the ruling favors Mollie Hemingway’s more traditionalist view of conservatism over my own libertarian chicanery.
Let me explain that.
Mollie and I have had fun debating social/legal issues such as gay marriage. Mollie always wins. I don’t concede that based upon my platonic crush on her superior intellect, real though it is.
Mollie always drops the hammer on me when she points out that America has its own culture, and that culture has a traditionalist aesthetic that has served us well for two centuries and is worth protecting. To change it is to change America.
While I hold dear my view that freedom is personal and expansive, like all libertarians I’m eventually forced to begrudgingly concede that I live in a country with other people and not alone on an island (though I often wish I could).
Not being one to revise the past I look on history and see a certain, and by certain I mean definite, American modesty when it comes to bodies, sex and marriage that is rooted in Puritanism and continues today despite nibbles and bites upon it by others.
I’ve found myself having that socially conservative point of view, as when I couldn’t figure out why a man who shows naked photos to a teenaged girl on the Internet might rightfully go to prison but when he hangs those photos on a wall in a public gallery suddenly he’s an “artist.” Clearly I’m clinging to some moral view of humility and modesty when I make that point.
You can read here a copy of the Court opinion in State v Phoenix Feeley. Two words make up the whole legal opinion, and here they are in context:
"…[r]estrictions on the exposure of the female breast are supported by the important governmental interest in safeguarding the public's moral sensibilities…
Moral sensibilities! It’s the law! Libertarianism is officially cast asunder.
Great. Now when Mollie has me on the ropes, she can drop me to the canvas with a cite to a court decision supporting her view of American traditionalism. Thanks a lot, Appellate Division!
Of course there is always the question of degree - how much moral sensibility shall we have?
Allow me to ponder tough case by case questions that could arise when maintaining moral sensibility as the law:
If it offends our moral sensibility to allow Phoenix Feeley to go topless in New Jersey, why then hasn’t Snooki been offered her last cigarette to face a firing squad at sunrise?
Is there anything more offensive to moral sensibilities than Snooki?
* photo credit NY Daily News
UPDATE: Ms. Hemingway advises that I have not properly related her views on the matter as she holds them, and, that she is more libertarian than I had thought (even when trying to give compliments I'm still a failure).
To ensure that I don't miss the mark again, I give you Mollie's thoughts in her own words:
My argument as it relates to marriage is that the state should not
favor one relationship over another. I do recognize and understand why
societies have always -- across all time and cultures -- favored and
protected the only relationship that leads to the propagation of the
species. I do wonder if the state redefining marriage to include
same-sex partners will have downsides that no one has considered. I
wonder if, with how much the government is involved in our lives, this
will dramatically change social norms in a way that might cause
problems. This is where, I recall, you and I have sparred. With regard
to social norms.
As it relates to this public nudity issue, I think that social norms
are sufficient for dealing with people who want to go nude on public
beaches. And if people don't want to deal with others exercising their
freedom of expression in public, they can go to a private beach. Of
course, I've read many libertarian arguments in favor of laws banning
public nudity. I've just found them lacking and, to be sure, I prefer
to err on the side of unrestricted liberty for the individual whether
it's related to economic or personal activity.
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Comments :
May '10
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
I'll give you this, Tommy: the legality of public nudity should be determined on an even more local level than the state level. This should be a municipal decision, right?
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Call me sexist Aaron, but I think it should be narrowed further and judged on an individual level like a beauty contest.
Some folks I just don't want to see nekked.
Dec '10
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
I have now officially forgiven you for any and all of your previous offenses to social conservatism. You're welcome. ;-)
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Why thank you!
Aug '10
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Luckily for y'all, the First Amendment protects "speech" and "the press", but not the amorphous "expression", so there's justification for leaving this sort of issue to the States and/or municipalities.
Up here in the Great White North, our constitution protects "expression", so our Supreme Court rules that toplessness is protected.
Funny thing though, after public toplessness was legalized in Canada, there was NO sudden boom in actual public toplessness. Just because women were granted the right, it did not follow that they would actually exercise the right.
In fact, I'd wager (though I have no data to back it up) that public toplessness probably went down after it was legalized. After all, where's the fun of going topless if it ain't gonna provoke "the man"?
Jul '10
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
First, I stand with Milton Friedman that a critical component of libertarianism is consensus on matters of public policy. In many cases, this results in more reserved standards of public conduct than would occur by a simple majority vote.
There is a large and vibrant marketplace catering to the less reserved, in any event. From pole dancing to naturist societies, there are existing social contracts in locations that effectively alleviate the broader standard. It is not as if society has ruthlessly suppressed every recourse.
Time to go shopping, Tommy!
Jan '11
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
I would like to consider such applications on a case by case basis
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Tommy,
As much as I love the praise, I fear you have me confused with someone else. I'm pretty sure I've never said something that can be characterized in the manner you've suggested.
Would you kindly correct or quote me otherwise?
Fact is I'm such a radical libertarian that you'd probably hate my views on whether public nudity should be criminalized ...
Edited on Sep 19, 2011 at 12:29pmRe: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.: Tommy,
As much as I love the praise, I fear you have me confused with someone else. I'm pretty sure I've never said something that can be characterized in the manner you've suggested.
Would you kindly correct or quote me otherwise?
Fact is I'm such a radical libertarian that you'd probably hate my views on whether public nudity should be me criminalized ... · Sep 19 at 12:24pm
I will fix it!
Let me get it clear first.
I thought your main retort to my view of gay marriage was that it was a changing of social norms.
When I read this legal opinon, I thought of you, as I read it as affirming your view (social norms and moral sensibilities being synonymous, at least in my mind).
I thought this was a great time to concede the point to you.
Was your objection to gay marriage other then social norms?
I don't want my attempt to compliment you to backfire and do you damage!
What is your view on public nudity! I'm intrigued now!!! I thought for sure you would have found it as objectionable as I do!
Edited on Sep 19, 2011 at 12:47pmRe: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Sisyphus: First, I stand with Milton Friedman that a critical component of libertarianism is consensus on matters of public policy. In many cases, this results in more reserved standards of public conduct than would occur by a simple majority vote.
There is a large and vibrant marketplace catering to the less reserved, in any event. From pole dancing to naturist societies, there are existing social contracts in locations that effectively alleviate the broader standard. It is not as if society has ruthlessly suppressed every recourse.
Time to go shopping, Tommy! · Sep 19 at 12:04pm
Interesting! But can't concensus among libertarians, in the hands of the wrong libertarians, end up with policy that is very - un-libertarian?
Aug '11
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Moral sensibility, to suggest that such a thing exists suggests that absolute morality itself exists which in turn suggests that there is a moral authority. Unfortunately, the popularity of such a concept has long been on the decline so we keep going in circles trying to define morals without absolutes. It is interesting as we drift further toward relativistic moral reasoning we're experiencing more fragmentation not less. I say this because the suggestion of popular culture is that if we can free ourselves of the shackles of the old thinking/religion, we'll finally find peace and freedom. The picture is painted that everyone will be able to live however they choose and no one will be offended. I think it was Stuart McCallister who I heard say "Freedom is not doing what you want, when you want, wherever you want. That is anarchy."
It only becomes clearer to me with the many odd attempts to redefine "morality" that we are in desperate need of a cohesive moral code if we are ever to find true peace.
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.: Tommy,
As much as I love the praise, I fear you have me confused with someone else. I'm pretty sure I've never said something that can be characterized in the manner you've suggested.
Would you kindly correct or quote me otherwise?
Fact is I'm such a radical libertarian that you'd probably hate my views on whether public nudity should be criminalized ... · Sep 19 at 12:24pm
Edited on Sep 19 at 12:29 pm
In fact Mollie - to make sure I don't mess it up again - send me the correction and I'll post it in the body of my post.
My email:
DeSeno@msn.com
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Tommy De Seno
I will fix it!
Let me get it clear first.
I thought your main retort to my view of gay marriage was that it was a changing of social norms.
When I read this legal opinon, I thought of you, as I read it as affirming your view (social norms and moral sensibilities being synonymous, at least in my mind).
I thought this was a great time to concede the point to you.
Was your objection to gay marriage other then social norms? ...
Well, my own view is that marriage should not be handled by the state. This is not the same thing as believing marriage should be redefined by the state to include same-sex unions.
I do believe that social norms should be strong but while I understand the power of the law to do just that, I worry about how it limits freedom. I prefer other means of enforcing norms, such as strong religious institutions and family structures.
Near as I remember, our disputes have largely been about the nature of marriage and how society supports parents raising their own children, not what the state should say about marriage per se.
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Tommy De Seno
What is your view on public nudity! I'm intrigued now!!! I thought for sure you would have found it as objectionable as I do! · Sep 19 at 12:41pm
Edited on Sep 19 at 12:47 pm
All for it! Just kidding, but I really don't think it's the job of the state to tell people what to wear. I prefer a more privatized society where private property owners can tell people "no shirt, no shoes, no business" rather than the state saying the same.
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Off to a meeting Mollie! Should last an hour. I will put your correction up then.
Aug '11
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
Tommy De Seno
What is your view on public nudity! I'm intrigued now!!! I thought for sure you would have found it as objectionable as I do! · Sep 19 at 12:41pm
Edited on Sep 19 at 12:47 pm
All for it! Just kidding, but I really don't think it's the job of the state to tell people what to wear. I prefer a more privatized society where private property owners can tell people "no shirt, no shoes, no business" rather than the state saying the same. · Sep 19 at 12:52pm
I agree here, but we still have to deal with public places like streets, parks, schools and fairgrounds. It has to rise to some level of government. If a group of people want to start Nudyville and run around buck-naked, that's fine. However, they likely will still have state highways and rivers flowing through their little piece of heaven. When I take my nine year old on a rafting trip that passes through Nudyville should I cover her eyes or should they be required to cover their buns?
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Think So
I agree here, but we still have to deal with public places like streets, parks, schools and fairgrounds. It has to rise to some level of government. If a group of people want to start Nudyville and run around buck-naked, that's fine. However, they likely will still have state highways and rivers flowing through their little piece of heaven. When I take my nine year old on a rafting trip that passes through Nudyville should I cover her eyes or should they be required to cover their buns? · Sep 19 at 1:05pm
Well, I admit that my libertarian ideal is a tad utopian. But in this case, doesn't it seem like it's more liberty-maximizing for you to change course or cover your daughter's eyes than to force Nudyville-ites to clothe? And don't we do the equivalent of this everyday? I consider our home restrictions on commercial television to be nothing other than finding our way around Nudyville.
Sep '10
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
The thought has occurred to me to give all of my posts the title of Tommy's post above to maximize google hits and sink my chances of the female Rico editors ever posting it.
Aug '11
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
Well, I admit that my libertarian ideal is a tad utopian. But in this case, doesn't it seem like it's more liberty-maximizing for you to change course or cover your daughter's eyes than to force Nudyville-ites to clothe? And don't we do the equivalent of this everyday? I consider our home restrictions on commercial television to be nothing other than finding our way around Nudyville. · Sep 19 at 1:14pm
Yes, and in fact, I believe my own religious convictions require this of me. Sadly though, it comes at the expense of my own freedom, no trips down the mighty and scenic Nudy River for me and my kin, no sir. Damn that whole turn the other cheek thingy.
In all seriousness, it is frustrating though to consider the new morality no matter how pious my own attitude is. The rise of transgender, cross-dressing friendly restrooms, for example, make it really difficult to send my daughter in to take a tinkle at the county fair, just hold it sweetie. Without a moral singular someone's personal freedom will be denied on issues of disagreement.
Nov '10
Re: This Post Is About Women’s Naked Breasts!
It's instructive to here counterpose the equally non-libertarian Ferengi social code, which stipulates that--on pain of public indecency--all females are obliged to go about naked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQhsblyahPA