The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Eugene Volokh flags a "fascinating new article" by Prof. Rick Sander and Prof. Jane Yakowitz. They introduce their findings as follows:
One of the most enduring shibboleths in the legal world is that would-be lawyers should go to the most elite law school they can get into. That’s why LSAT prep courses and US News rankings generate so much [...] interest, and it’s why so many applicants apply to more than ten schools and move thousands of miles to matriculate at the “best” school that will have them.
There have long been grounds for skepticism about this view. In the work one of us did on law school affirmative action, lots of data suggested that black law school applicants were being harmed, not helped, by being enticed to attend more elite schools where their credentials were below those of their classmates. Grades mattered a lot in determining who passed the bar, and being “mismatched” in law school had devastating effects on grades. [...]
Certainly our advice is not to go to the worst school one gets into [...]. We hope the group most influenced by our findings, however, are legal educators, who to date have tended to underestimate and trivialize the learning that occurs in law school and its significance for later career success. We hope that academics will stop repeating the mantra of “eliteness = success” and start studying real learning outcomes [or maybe “real advances to human capital” or something like that?].
I must confess that I am not surprised by the findings of Sander and Yakowitz. The explanation is this: being an excellent lawyer depends on a lot more than knowing the law. It also depends on a sense of self-confidence that can win the trust of clients and the respect of business partners (for transactional lawyers) and opponents (for litigation). That self-confidence, and all the other skills that come with it—presence, responsiveness, alertness to social cues—depend on success early in life. The student who swims well with the tide and develops these skills at lesser law schools have built an asset that some students with the same raw intellectual ability cannot acquire at the top schools because they are always under suspicion and hence ill-at-ease. To be sure, there are some positions that are dependent on doing well at major law schools, and these include prestigious clerkships, teaching positions, jobs in the media, where the connections run only to a half dozen skills. Yet even at all elite places most law students will practice some sort of law, so that for them hitting the comfort zone in law school really matters.
There is also another statistical anomaly that is worth mentioning. Take a great student and put that person in a lesser school, and usually the achievement level will be pretty close to the same. The point here is that the person is what matters critically. So if someone in the top 1 percent nationwide comes to Chicago or Boalt Hall (to pick two places not quite at random), they fight against a strong pack and may finish in the middle. Let them go to a second tier school, and they finish at the very top, which compensates for the placement.
So the moral is: always go where you feel comfortable because that it where you are most likely to realize your full potential.
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Aug '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Great advice, and not just for lawyers. Even being an excellent scientist depends on confidence in yourself -- it's like chutzpah effectively adds another 50 points to IQ.
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
One question and one observation.
1. Does the study correct for differences in grading systems? I suspect that lower ranked schools generally have tougher grading systems. The "elite" schools have grade inflation or systems designed to obscure differences among students -- Chicago, I believe, being the exception. Schools say this reduces competition among students, but competition just redirects itself into other avenues. I've always thought it was more of an effort to force big law firms to hire somewhat randomly among the student body, perhaps in the belief that firms will hire more students (which I don't think makes much sense). Lower ranked schools, I think, have tougher grading systems because only the students who really stand out will be picked up by the big law firms. Lower ranked schools cannot afford to have camouflage grading.
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
2. Richard is right -- what is important is the educational experience, not the name brand on the diploma. Grades are a rough proxy of how much effort the student put into the course and learned the material. Different schools will suit different people -- some will take better to large, impersonal classes where the student is responsible for his learning; others will learn better in a smaller seminar where discussion is required. The only point I would add is that what Richard says is not unique to law schools. Liberal arts colleges will provide a better education to some undergraduates than Harvard or Yale. I've always thought that many ivy league colleges offer an education that is, on average, inferior to what is offered by smaller liberal arts schools, but that the credential and networking opportunities may make up for it. What is important in both settings is that students learn how to think critically, write well, and speak clearly.
Jul '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
This runs so contrary to every lawyer I've ever encountered, I went and looked at the paper.
Actually their data shows the opposite. You have a 3 in 4 chance of being hired at a big NY law firm if you come from the top 50 law schools. You have a 1/4 chance of being a partner at a top law firm if you graduate from the top 20 law schools, as opposed to a 1% chance if you are from tier 3 school. If you do well at a top 20 school, and as Prof. Yoo points out, everyone does, you get a $20,000 higher salary. If you do average, you can make $40,000 more.
Their regression data is not robust enough to interpret.
Here's another test: How many Justices on the Supreme Court are from outside the Top 3? How many of their clerks are from outside the top 20?
Aug '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
On the other hand, Mike, there are lot of really bright people for whom self-confidence is a problem, and it's not clear that they are best served by being at an elite institution, where grade inflation can actually increase the desperation to distinguish yourself.
I've had more than one math professor at my school tell me that they wouldn't have been able to make it through my school's undergraduate coursework in math -- yet there they are, teaching at an Ivy-league institution. How did they get there?
In one class of physics majors at my school, two of the three top students had breakdowns before graduation. One barely finished his degree years later and left the field, the other never finished, and now flips burgers somewhere. These were brilliant young men: their loss of confidence was quite possibly a loss to science. And their collapse of confidence wasn't a fluke, but representative of a problem that my school is known to have.
To be part of the ultra-elite, elite credentials undoubtedly help. But most success lies outside the scope of the ultra-elite. For most of us, success, not rank, is what matters.
May '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
This is a fair point, but I think one of the most compelling arguments to the contrary is that this fact may explain many of the Court's shortcomings.
Jul '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Without giving too much away, and going too far off topic, two points.
1. The professor was certainly self-flattering. It's quite difficult to teach things you don't know.
2. That said, in my experience in academia, graduation from an elite institution (let's say top 25) with your Ph.D. in sciences opens doors that the degree from a lesser institution can never do. The sciences have become, in a sense, a guild where the names on the letterhead of the recommendation letter are much much much more important than accomplishments. I see this every year in faculty searches. You will see two candidates. One with 2 first author publications, the other with 10 in the same journals. Let's assume equal teaching experience. The former came from Berkeley. The latter from State U. Nine times out of ten, the faculty will go with the former. "But she worked for Professor X," as if that confers Prof. X's ability, intelligence and productivity. But I will say it will confer an easier time obtaining federal funding...
Jun '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
I agree with Professor Epstein. I've been an attorney for 35 years. I went to a very good 2nd-tier law school, where I did well (e.g., law review).
Michael Tee makesgood points, but I believe he misses a larger point. Very few attorneys have any desire whatever to practice law with a big NY firm. Most of us practice somewhere near where we grew up. In the city I practice in, the lack of a Harvard or Yale law degree is largely irrelevant. Sure, law firms here hire lawyers from those schools, but they are the exception.
Michael is completely right about the Supreme Court, which tells you more about the political elites than the quality of lawyers from other law schools. Frankly, since there are only nine S. Ct. jobs, let's face it, even if you're from Yale or Harvard you'd better make other career plans.
One of the best lawyers I know went to Harvard, but then one of the worst lawyers I know also went to Harvard. Once you're out of law school, it's what you do, not where you studied that matters.
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
From my viewpoint, the intriguing idea here is that the skill set required to be elite is not at all identical to the skill set required to be successful. Obviously there's some overlap. But now's a great time to think about exactly what's the content in the middle of the Venn diagram.
May '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
There was a time, long ago I admit, when trust in credentials was thought to be a European attitude, in contrast with the American trust in ability and accomplishment (and distrust of credentials.) This was one of our nation's distinguishing characteristics, proudly so in fact, a part of our national mythology.
Aug '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Michael Tee
That said, in my experience in academia, graduation from an elite institution (let's say top 25) with your Ph.D. in sciences opens doors that the degree from a lesser institution can never do.
Oh, definitely, and if a student feels comfortable at an elite institution, he should go, all else being equal.
But if a student is likely to feel so uncomfortable at an elite institution that he risks crashing and burning, even despite his many gifts, isn't it better for him to study somewhere less elite where he'll be comfortable enough that his gifts will actually show?
That might make the difference between a career as a scientist who gets a job in the field he loves on the tenth try, and a career flipping burgers despite many gifts.
For some of us, because of temperament or other reasons, not all doors will be open anyhow, so we might as well try to maximize the few doors that will be open. One way to do this is to avoid situations where we risk failing spectacularly enough to close pretty much all our doors.
Work with what you've got, right?
Jul '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
But if a student is likely to feel so uncomfortable at an elite institution that he risks crashing and burning...isn't it better for him to study somewhere less elite where he'll be comfortable enough that his gifts will actually show?
That might make the difference between a career as a scientist who gets a job in the field he loves on the tenth try, and a career flipping burgers despite many gifts.
Work with what you've got, right? · Aug 11 at 12:53pm
Oh, I'd say it's the difference between getting and not getting the job you want at all, depending on the level of institution. But if you're going from a top 5 program to a top 25 program, that's still by my definition, pretty elite.
I don't understand the word "uncomfortable." I have certainly met grad students at many institutions (I've worked at a few) who did not have the disposition to get the degree. That didn't stop them in most cases. You can take a look at graduation rates of schools, and even at places like Harvard, the washout rate is pretty low.
Aug '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
James Poulos, Ed.
From my viewpoint, the intriguing idea here is that the skill set required to be elite is not at all identical to the skill set required to be successful. Obviously there's some overlap. But now's a great time to think about exactly what's the content in the middle of the Venn diagram. · Aug 11 at 12:20pm
I think there's tons of overlap -- I'd say that being elite is a subset of being successful. After all, elites are successful at something, even if it's not always something ordinary folks value much.
Both inside and outside elite circles, self-promotion is a skill that's hard to do without. However, I think someone outside elite circles who is not a self-promoter may be better able to compensate for lack of self-promotion with industriousness and a regard for others' wants and needs. (Are the Amish self-promoters or industrious and considerate of others?)
Raw intelligence obviously helps, but it works best with self-assurance. Holding intelligence equal, sheer cockiness seems to beat self-doubt every time in academia. Outside academia, I'd say this is also often true, but less so.
Jun '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
James Poulos, Ed.
From my viewpoint, the intriguing idea here is that the skill set required to be elite is not at all identical to the skill set required to be successful. Obviously there's some overlap. But now's a great time to think about exactly what's the content in the middle of the Venn diagram. · Aug 11 at 12:20pm
James: The intersection of the Venn ( elements common to both success and "elitehood') would probably include a fair degree of intellegence, adequate academic preparation etc. Isn't the more interesting question: what traits or characteristics are more tightly associated with success than with eliteness? Dudley Moore's Arthur was unquestionably elite but not successful due to his inebriation. If "success" is on the right lobe of the Venn, I would put integrity, capacity for sustained hard work, clear vision of a goal, and ability to maintain mutually advantageous relationships as elements that contribute to success but which may be not entirely necessary to be recognized as elite.
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Well, that sounds to me like we're asking two halves of the same question, there, Pilgrim. </JohnWayne> How small is the middle of the Venn? Because once upon a time -- say, in Calvin Coolidge's time -- I think your list of tight correlatives with success would have belonged on any good list of qualities for political or professional elitehood. (Or at least many would have insisted that they belonged there...)
Aug '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Michael Tee
I don't understand the word "uncomfortable." · Aug 11 at 1:08pm
For example, students who are easily discouraged or intimidated; who tend to see only their own failures rather than their (often considerable) successes; who have family problems; or physical- or mental-health problems that, despite all the accommodations available these days, still are no fun to wake up to every morning and just make it harder to be productive, no matter what your IQ, passion, or special talents.
A student with a chronic pain problem may have to choose between dulling his intellect with heavy-duty pain meds and trying to think clearly through the distraction of pain. Neither is easy. Even if his abilities are outstanding otherwise, such a student may be better off taking what would be the "easy route" if he were healthy.
A student with severe allergic asthma may have to avoid many elite institutions simply because of their climate. (Try thinking when you can't breathe!)
I think bright children are often sold a fiction that intellect and drive is all that matters, and just these two things can overcome anything. For most of us, alas, this simply isn't true.
Jul '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Michael Tee
I don't understand the word "uncomfortable." · Aug 11 at 1:08pm
For example, students who are easily discouraged or intimidated...and just make it harder to be productive, no matter what your IQ, passion, or special talents.
I think bright children are often sold a fiction that intellect and drive is all that matters, and just these two things can overcome anything. For most of us, alas, this simply isn't true. · Aug 11 at 1:50pm
Welcome to real life. Everyone has a story. Well, almost everyone.
You are correct, intellect and drive can not overcome everything.
Pilgrim
James: The intersection of the Venn ( elements common to both success and "elitehood') would probably include a fair degree of intellegence, adequate academic preparation etc.
I have to disagree here. Plenty of elites get there by choosing the 'right' schools (being legacies, etc.) or having well-connected parents. My background (blue collar) did not put me in a position to know what those things were. My parents certainly didn't know. My friends have a joke about me I can negotiate my way out of "the Hood" in Camden, NJ but not the faculty lounge.
Aug '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Michael Tee
Welcome to real life. Everyone has a story. Well, almost everyone.
Well, you did ask, "I don't understand the word 'uncomfortable'". So I said.
"Welcome to real life" is my point, too: as valuable as elite institutions may be, overvaluing what's elite can put us in conflict with real limitations that elites tend to believe shouldn't matter.
Where there's less elitism, there's less victim mentality, too.
Jul '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
"Welcome to real life" is my point, too: as valuable as elite institutions may be, overvaluing what's elite can put us in conflict with real limitations that elites tend to believe shouldn't matter.
Where there's less elitism, there's less victim mentality, too. · Aug 11 at 3:31pm
Agreed. As I've said in other 'threads,' I've met plenty of people from Harvard who can't find their ass with both hands. And those elites are so disconnected from reality, it's amazing.
I once made the mistake at a lunch at a scientific meeting of playing the game "So what did your parents do?" Doctors, lawyers, professors, etc. I think I was the only one whose father was a machinist and whose mother was a nurse. It was funny to hear how hard their lives were going to boarding school or being a nerd in high school - they were such victims. Let's just say I would have wished for their childhoods.
Aug '10
Re: The Secret to Success? Self-Confidence, Not Eliteness
James Poulos, Ed.
From my viewpoint, the intriguing idea here is that the skill set required to be elite is not at all identical to the skill set required to be successful. Aug 11 at 12:20pm
I think it's not so much skill-set required to be successful as much as it is the definition of "success" that differs.
A man who made a killing inventing some procedure that clears a stopped drain extra-fast I guess wouldn't be considered "successful" by elite standards, since he's "only" plumbing. A guy whose chain of convenience stores really is more convenient than all the rest likewise wouldn't count as successful in the elite sense, since they're convenience stores, for heaven's sake!
Success in elite circles is more narrowly-defined, more hierarchical, more obsessed with rank. Success outside elite circles is simply wider, mostly based on how you can be useful to others.
There are more ways to succeed outside the elite. If there weren't, the elite wouldn't be elite.