The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
From a fascinating post over at The Corner by Duncan Currie regarding the unfolding events in Egypt:
“The history of democratic Christendom,” Gerecht wrote in The Weekly Standard, suggests that “you don’t get to arrive at Thomas Jefferson unless you first pass through Martin Luther.”
In other words, during the infant stages of Arab democracy, we should not anticipate a dominant performance by the secular liberals popular among Washington think-tankers. The political success of devout Muslims will trigger all manner of alarm in Western capitals. (Witness the reaction to Iraq’s first free elections, which empowered a slew of religious parties.) Yet Gerecht argues that, over the long haul, drawing Islamic fundamentalists into the cross-pollinating world of democratic competition is essential to defusing the ideological appeal of jihadism.
Of course, it took the better part of two centuries to get from Martin Luther to Thomas Jefferson. In today's nuclear arms-saturated post-Cold War world, we should hope that such an evolution proceeds much more quickly, but I am not certain it will.
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May '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
How do you compare the two? The religions, values, cultures and history are so different.
Oct '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Excellent point, Andrea. The best model we have for Islamic democracy to date is Turkey, and as noted in the article, an Arab Atatürk has yet to emerge.
May '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
I don't understand that part of the world enough to have an opinion, so I'm a bit vulnerable with discussions like this. For that reason, I'm very selective in who I trust for insight. Unless the source is someone like Claire who has lived there and developed an expertise based on study, interaction and years of experience I doubt everything I read. But, I'm curious what you think since you're a historian and I have yet to not trust your judgment. :-)
May '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
I wonder how much education has to do with the success of a liberal revolution. In the U.S., while not many were necessarily college educated, I think a lot of citizens were self-educated. I don't think that is the case with countries like Egypt. The vast majority of the populace are illiterate. Please correct me if I have my facts wrong.
Oct '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
There is much truth in Currie's statement. American democracy is an inspired synthesis of Judea-Christian religious principles and Enlightenment philosophy that cannot likely be duplicated in other societies with the same result. However, as I stated in another post:
Re: Liberty vs. Democracy
Good Berean
All three of the modern monothestic religions, Judiasm, Islam and Christianity, share the concept of covenant, the foundational principle of federalism (from the Latin foedus: covenant or treaty). Democracy, as promoted by American Liberals, is anti-federal in that is seeks to elevate the "general will" of the supposed majority over the objections of even a rightous minority, whereas classical liberalism, the ideal of preserving the liberty of the individual while promoting the general welfare of the society, is well served by federalism.
I believe that Federalism, within the religious context of the Abrahamic covenant (that which was made to Abraham, the common ancestor of the Arabs and the Jews, with Christians included as as spritual/adopted heirs of Abraham), is really the only hope of a stable regional polity in the Middle East, and should be the guiding force of public policy vis a vis Islam here in the United States.
Oct '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Well, I'm a bit vulnerable as well because the Middle East is far from my field of historical expertise. Thus, I usually just read Claire's threads about the region's politics and don't comment often. But being schooled in the significance of historical precedent, my thoughts on the situation in Egypt tend toward the pessimistic; there just seems to be something in Arab culture that fundamentally works against the establishment and endurance of liberal democracy. Whether that is cultural, religious, or a combination of the two is what I wonder.
Edited on Feb 1, 2011 at 2:12pmOct '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
True, the population of colonial America was remarkably well-educated at the time of the Revolution, which greatly facilitated the efforts of Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine, and other pamphleteers to disseminate their political beliefs. According to this November 2009 article, illiteracy in Egypt stands at 26% - not a majority, but enough to ensure that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood can benefit from exploiting popular ignorance. And to my knowledge, Egypt presently lacks the effective equivalent of an Adams or Paine.
Edited on Feb 1, 2011 at 2:25pmOct '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Mike LaRoche
True, the population of colonial America was remarkably well-educated at the time of the Revolution, which greatly facilitated the efforts of Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine, and other pamphleteers to disseminate their political beliefs. According to this November 2009 article, illiteracy in Egypt stands at 26% - not a majority, but enough to ensure that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood can benefit from exploiting popular ignorance. And to my knowledge, Egypt presently lacks the effective equivalent of an Adams or Paine. · Feb 1 at 2:10pm
Which reinforces Curries point that American democracy is rooted in the Reformation. Literacy in Modern Europe was stimulated by the idea of the priesthood of believers and the need for those believers (priests) to rightly discern the Word of God.
Oct '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
That is an intriguing point about foedus - etymology is quite revealing. Perhaps it would be possible for a distinctly Arab/Muslim type of federal representative republicanism to take root in the region. Do you perceive any federalist quality to Iraq's nascent democracy?
Jul '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Precisely, Andrea, as I noted here: http://ricochet.com/member-feed/America-s-Democratic-Arrogance
Jul '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Mike LaRoche
True, the population of colonial America was remarkably well-educated at the time of the Revolution, which greatly facilitated the efforts of Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine, and other pamphleteers to disseminate their political beliefs. According to this November 2009 article, illiteracy in Egypt stands at 26% - not a majority, but enough to ensure that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood can benefit from exploiting popular ignorance.
According to the CIA World Factbook (when have they ever been wrong?) there's a pretty substantial literacy gender gap. While 83% of men are literate, only 59% of women are.
Can't imagine why...
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html
Jun '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
In terms of timelines, Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. Even if you assume that history may move faster these days, it could still be a long time before their Martin Luther shows up. To complicate matters, Luther had only one "target." What would be the baseline to reform against in an environment where the fundamentalist Islamic "target" is so splintered? If you're just talking about Sunni Islam, then who's Sunni Islam? etc., etc.
Jun '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
" The vast majority of the populace are illiterate."
As are many of the Imams preaching annihilation of the West.
I read that piece this morning and came away annoyed. If Egypt and other Muslim countries took centuries to go from, as Geracht says, Martin Luther to Jefferson, I could not care less ------- provided they stayed away from me and my freedoms. But that's not the case, is it? Sorry, but as they are plotting to destroy the West, we are walking on eggshells trying desperately not to offend their cultural sensibilities.
Now is not the time for patience.
Jun '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Dave -- we are the target. And we're not being targeted with thoughtful, give-and-take dialogue!
I see no evidence of a fundamentalist Islamic target being lined up by peaceful, reform-minded Muslims.
Jul '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Mike LaRoche:
Of course, it took the better part of two centuries to get from Martin Luther to Thomas Jefferson. In today's nuclear arms-saturated post-Cold War world, we should hope that such an evolution proceeds much more quickly, but I am not certain it will. ·
Mike, I think there are some dynamics that weren't present in the Western adoption of liberal democracy.
One difference is that ideas travel faster now. Another is that there are visible models. Sure, Jefferson had the Delian League, Rome, Great Britain & other examples of relatively representative government to draw upon, but nothing comparable to what exists now.
Many Muslims can see how the U.S., Canada, Australia, & others operate. They can see wealth & the power it generates. Flaws abound, but basically, it works, and they can see that it works. Of course, they can also see many things they find abhorrent.
The evolution may never take place. Count me in with the realists/pessimists. But, if it does, the pace could be much quicker.
Jun '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Yes, we're certainly the external target, and no, I don't expect a give-and-take dialog any time soon. That's my point. What I'm trying to say is that since Islam has never looked at itself introspectively like Christians did during the Reformation, it will likely continue to lash out at external targets like us. I didn't quite understand your second point, but all I can say is that Islam will always struggle with violence and an inability to embrace the modern world until it reforms itself. I think we would both agree with that.
StickerShock: Dave -- we are the target. And we're not being targeted with thoughtful, give-and-take dialogue!
I see no evidence of a fundamentalist Islamic target being lined up by peaceful, reform-minded Muslims. · Feb 1 at 4:12pm
Jun '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Dave, my point is that I see no internal Islam reformation movement brewing. It's desperately needed. And as Paleaologus states, they see how our Western societies work -- and they do work -- yet their resistence to modernity and liberalism grows even stronger. The pace of change today sould be much, much faster. I'm feeling like a pessimist, too.
May '10
Re: The Radicalism of the American and Egyptian Revolutions
Islam will not have a Martin Luther moment because there is no formal religious body like there was with Christianity. There is no institutional Islam apart from political rulers. Rather, leadership in Islam is more similar to the rabbis (teachers) of Judaism.
Luther was responding to misdeeds by the Church, a definite hierarchy with codified beliefs. Islam cannot be similarly reformed.