The Radical RINO
Below, on Steve Manacek's post, there's an interesting discussion of what, exactly, about where centrists, moderates, RINO's, and true believers belong on Ricochet, and what each should have taken away from last night's -- to me, anyway -- pointless slugfest.
BThompson puts it this way in the comments:
This site has a visceral dislike of Romney which colors its thinking. Its top contributors have been bashing him quite vociferously for months. The so-called "center-right" nature Ricochet claims for itself is nowhere to be found, as far as I'm concerned. Of course there is an anti-Romney bias coloring the perception of the people posting here. It's obvious, and you'll notice that many of the true centrist posters who used to contribute regularly have disappeared. I suspect that, like me, they've gotten pretty sick of listening to people cheerlead for awful candidates as well as the over the top, incessant trashing of someone the GOP should be seriously considering as its nominee.
Well, as Ricochet's resident RINO, and half-hearted Romney supporter, I have to respectfully disagree. I didn't watch last night's debate -- I listened to it. And I thought Romney came off okay, though I dearly love Herman Cain and Newt, of course. But I just don't think Newt has the presidential temperament -- that's not insulting, or dismissive of him. I don't think a lot of folks have it. I don't think a lot of brilliant folks have it, either. I can't imagine a President Thomas Sowell, though sometimes I think about it when I need something nice to think about.
And Herman Cain makes me nervous for a lot of reasons. None of them fatal, by the way, but he does. Right now, anyway. I was a Rick Perry fan until I saw him up close.
It comes down to this: I wish I loved Mitt Romney. I wish I could give him 100% of my enthusiasm, because I think he's going to win the nomination and be a strong national candidate and winning in November 2012 is important. I wish he was a more robust conservative. But I'm willing to settle, if I have to, to get Obama out of office.
Maybe I'm an outlier on Ricochet, like BThompson indicates. But I'm not so sure. In the most recent Ricochet Center of Gravity poll, which is a short-term snapshot of Ricochet members and their presidential choices, it's pretty much a version of the sentiment among Republicans nationally: Cain is super-popular, Mitt's a distant second, everyone else is an also-ran.
The heart of the question is here, in BThompson's comment:
As to my disappointment about what this site is morphing into, well, I'm sorry but I'm allowed to kvetch. When I joined, Mike Murphy and David Brooks were welcome on the podcasts, there was a nice diversity of right-leaning political opinion, and I agreed that this was a center-right place as it declared itself to be. That's why I joined. I no longer believe Ricochet is that. It's become more far right, and the member posts are dominated by Tea Party types, whom I don't consider anywhere near center.
For the record, Mike and David are welcome back on the podcast -- and the pages -- anytime. We invite them both on often, and when they can schedule it, we're thrilled. The site -- and the conversations -- are supposed to be spirited exchanges, not pile-ups or echo chambers. That's our goal, and from our Center of Gravity poll, I think we're (at least partially) succeeding. I hope that we reflect the changing nature of the race. I hope we're hard on Mitt, and hard on everyone else, too.
Editor's Update: Take a look at the results of Ricochet's Center of Gravity Poll here.
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Comments :
Dec '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Well said, Rob. Let me add that we would probably be as viscerally aligned against anyone labeled as inevitable. It is a halmark of conservatism to be self-critical almost to a fault. As each candidate has surged we have amped up the criticism. If they cannot withstand our scrutiny then they have no business being our representatives. Romney has been a favorite to win since he lost last time, so our scrutiny of him has been consistent and continual. We won't just kick the tires and drive the car around the lot before we buy it. We will get it on the highway and see what it's really got. We're really not being hyper-critical of Romney; we're just being smart shoppers.
Sep '10
Re: The Radical RINO
I agree completely. I was talking to a friend about Romney seeming more presidential, blah, blah, blah and my friend said, "what state does he deliver? Utah? probably not Mass." Right now I think he will deliver as many states as Nixon did and Obama will be the George McGovern who actually got to be President but who knows how it will play out a year from now. We are in the odd situation where a number of excellent, inspiring candidates are just a bit too young yet. I wonder if anything similar has ever happened before.
Jun '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Tea party types are not near the center, eh? The Tea Party stands on two pillars: fiscal sobriety and limited government. If you're a conservative, these two points are fundamental, the very center of our ideology. How is that far right?
Sep '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Romney was Gov. of Mass. and tried to convince the voters of that fine conservative state he was every bit as liberal as Teddy when he ran against him. Now when he is trying to portray himself as almost another Reagan everyone is suppose to take his pronouncements at face value? I have no dislike for Romney nor Scott Brown, but they are the kind of Republicans who can get elected in the home state of the Kennedy's. Excuse me if I am a bit skeptical when they try to pretend to be something else.
Re: The Radical RINO
I know we pay for it in many ways, but I love that about us.
Nov '10
Re: The Radical RINO
I fail to see how Romney's promise of a trade war with China can be viewed as moderate or conservative or anything but just plain stupid and dangerous. The best defense anyone can give of the guy is that he must be lying. Myself, I think stupid is also possible. Neither attribute strikes me as appealing in a presidential candidate. I'm against him not because he's moderate, but because I think he's potentially disastrous.
Jun '10
Re: The Radical RINO
I like Newt for his understanding of history, his intelligence, his fighting spirit, and for something very important this time--enough high-level Washington experience to hit the ground running. We need a Churchill, and Newt's probably the closest one we have...so far. Romney's a smart guy, but he's no Churchill. I wish Cain has more political experience under his belt, but he doesn't. Until Romney spends Newt under the table, I'm picking Newt.
Nov '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Oh, thanks so much! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I am still hoping for someone better to join the race, however.
Apr '11
Re: The Radical RINO
~Paules
Tea party types are not near the center, eh? The Tea Party stands on two pillars: fiscal sobriety and limited government. If you're a conservative, these two points are fundamental, the very center of our ideology. How is that far right? · Oct 19 at 12:27pm
Hear! Hear! Add to that, that despite my (current) affinity for Herman, and my affinities with Tea Partiers, I am not and never have been a Tea Party patriot. Patriot is just fine. Like the Beatles said, "Think for Yourself." I will be there with you.
May '11
Re: The Radical RINO
The discrepancy in the comment sections of Ricochet and NRO can probably be attributed to one of Romney's central flaws: he doesn't inspire (acknowledged even by Rich Lowery). His supporters are not the type to express their feelings because their feelings are mixed. "On the one hand...on the other hand" comments are usually boring anyway. I imagine the reason he has stayed where he has is that, while he hasn't convinced people to get on board, he has not embarrassed his supporters to the point where they abandon ship in favor of the "Cain Train."
May '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Stupid? Definitely not.
Pandering? In true Romney character-- it's all he's done for his career as a politician. This is why we don't like him, not because he's "moderate."
How do you like it when you know someone is condescendingly telling you what they think you want to hear, and it's obvious they have no intention or sincerity about it?
[If you don't get what I'm talking about, it just feels to me like Romney brought up this issue to appeal to the populist sentiment against China, not because he has any real feelings about the issue. Stuff like this that just comes out of nowhere (when was China a big issue for him before?), plus his past record, make it clear he's pandering.]
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 1:13pmNov '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Chris Deleon
Stupid? Definitely not.
Pandering? In true Romney character-- it's all he's done for his career as a politician. This is why we don't like him, not because he's "moderate."
How do you like it when you know someone is condescendingly telling you what they think you want to hear, and it's obvious they have no intention or sincerity about it?
There has to be some stupidity there, because he thinks someone wants to hear that. There isn't anyone who wants to hear that we will have a trade war with China--at least, there isn't a Republican voter I've heard of who thinks that's a good idea.
Mar '11
Re: The Radical RINO
(Edit: Spent a lot of time typing a comment and the conversation drifted in a new direction. So it goes.)
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 1:00pmMay '10
Re: The Radical RINO
I was upset. my apologies to all...esp. BThompson. But when the world was adoring the new Messiah, the "Tea Party-types" were the only ones standing at the gates. And to be called "far right"...well, I've apologized; but I hope you understand why those of us called everything from "far right" to "racist" expect better in this forum..
Your serve.
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 1:49pmRe: The Radical RINO
Lucy Pevensie
Oh, thanks so much! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I am still hoping for someone better to join the race, however. · Oct 19 at 12:46pm
Ditto. Closet Newt fan here. In ordinary times, the villainy in his personal life and his lack of discipline during his speakership would be deal-breakers. But these are no ordinary times. The one thing that he doesn't seem to be able to overcome though, as Troy Senik has pointed out, is his temperament as the peacemaker. He can't seem to stomach going after the other candidates. Too bad.
May '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Exactly. I would attribute it to the fact that the 20-30% who support Romney (they are here on the site) don't feel strongly enough about it to take on the (probably) 40-70% who vociferously don't like Romney and feel no hesitation to say so. Complaining about the supposed disappearance of moderates on the site is just a way of deflecting attention from the lack of enthusiasm Romney generates.
Which is why Romney is not a very good nominee. Sure, he may get most of our votes in the general election, but he won't get enough passion to inspire us to give much more than that (knock on doors, rally behind him in the blogosphere, etc.).
I've been for Perry, but Cain would be an interesting candidate to support. Not least because he could up-end the stereotypes about supposed Republican racism.
May '10
Re: The Radical RINO
I confess I'm one of the Romney supporters (by default, natch) who doesn't bother posting on the matter much anymore.
Even the most measured comment in his favor is met with hyperbole -- "He brought us the tyranny of Obamacare!" (No he didn't. Obama did, against our wishes and we hate it. Romney brought Massachusetts Romneycare, consistent with their wishes, and they like it. Big difference. It's called federalism.) -- such that it precludes meaningful conversation.
I'll be glad when we have our candidate.
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 1:09pmMay '10
Re: The Radical RINO
Keith Preston: "It's become more far right, and the member posts are dominated by Tea Party types, whom I don't consider anywhere near center."
That's all I needed to read. You ever been to a Tea Party rally, pal? Or did you just hear about them on TV? You can go take your $3.58 and go pound sand for all I care. The people I met at Tea Party rallies were salt of the earth-types from ALL ideologies who had enough of having trillions of dollars of their hard-earned money spent without a thought of the consequences to "millions yet unborn." If that ain't near the center, you had better go get yourself an inner-ear exam. · Oct 19 at 1:01pm
Be nice.
Jan '11
Re: The Radical RINO
This type of response above is basically what I'm talking about.
Thanks, Rob, by the way, for acknowledging my complaints. The thing I've always loved and still love about Ricochet is that I get a chance to actually have a conversation with great minds like yourself, Peter, James, Dr. Rahe, Mollie, and all the rest. It real is unique and very wonderful. I hope I'm just being a crank and over reading the shift I've sensed. I imagine primary battles do distort the spectrum of conservativism, which may be part of what I'm responding to.
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 1:11pmDec '10
Re: The Radical RINO
~Paules
Tea party types are not near the center, eh? The Tea Party stands on two pillars: fiscal sobriety and limited government. If you're a conservative, these two points are fundamental, the very center of our ideology. How is that far right? · Oct 19 at 12:27pm
Can I add - low taxes and free markets?