The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Our member Kennedy Smith raises an outstandingly interesting question on Ricochet's Facebook page. He writes:
Say it ain't so! Bayonet training cancelled. I am the very model of a modern armchair general, so would like to hear actual gun-totin' warriors on this. I just remember the bayonet charge by the Highlanders in Iraq, which turned out well. And then there was the cavalry operation in Afghanistan, using it in its proper role, for its mobility. Though can quite understand why there might be more important things to learn.
I say this question is "outstandingly interesting" because, as some of you may know, I moonlight as the least-qualified martial-arts expert on the Internet. And because I'm absolutely not exaggerating one whit when I say I'm the least-qualified martial-arts expert on the Internet, I don't know the answer. But I bet someone here does.
Here's the argument in favor:
“Traditionally in the 20th century – certainly after World War I – bayonet training was basically designed to develop in soldiers aggressiveness, courage, and preparation for close combat,” says Richard Kohn, professor of military history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Bayonet training is, in short, used to undo socialization – to “basically to try to mitigate or eradicate the reluctance of human beings to kill each other,” Mr. Kohn says. It is one of the challenges in US or Western society “where we have such reverence for the individual, where we socialize our people to believe in the rule of law, and all of that,” he adds. “What you’re doing with young people is trying to get them used to the highly emotional and irrational and adrenaline-filled situations in which they are liable to find themselves whether they are within sight of the enemy or not – and the reluctance to take a life.”
And here's the argument against:
US troops hadn’t launched a bayonet charge since 1951 during the Korean War. And new soldiers preparing for an increasingly violent war in Afghanistan already need to learn far more skills than the 10 weeks of basic training allows, says Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, head of initial entry training and the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command. ...
“What’s interesting,” he says, “is if bayonet training is that important and it’s the centerpiece of everything we do, why is it the only place it’s taught is at basic training?
“If it’s that important, you’d think all the operational units would have bayonet assault courses.”
The fact is, there are more important things to teach during a time of war, Hertling adds. In a counterinsurgency fight such as Afghanistan, “You carry an M-4 carbine strapped around your chest,” he says. “You can’t do much with a bayonet.”
So is bayonet training a waste of time in the modern era, or does this decision symbolize the wussification of our military? I'll be pretty impressed if anyone on Ricochet can make the argument in favor from personal experience.
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Comments :
Sep '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
I realize you are trying to provoke comment, but clearly the choice is not between "a waste of time" and wussification. As stated in the article drill sargents requested the change to provide time to teach more appropriate combat skills. It has been years, but I do not remember ever meeting a Drill Sargent in my basic training that could ever have been said to favor wussification. With all do respect to the Prof quoted in the article, probably the main reason bayonet training was continued after WW1 was that it was conducted prior to WW1. Like all goverment agencies the military changes slowly.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
As long as they retain shooting-people training, blowing-stuff-up training and running-ten-miles training, I'm not too upset by this.
Jul '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
The WW II generation required extensive training and rehearsal to overcome the moral inhibition against killing, even in combat. The Army has found that the first-person shooter generation in no way requires this kind of conditioning to overcome moral qualms. Wussification is not an issue here.
Jun '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
The bayonet charge is a measure of a unit's morale and cohesion. The tactic demonstrates to the enemy that said unit simply will not break. Opposing soldiers must wipe it out or run for their lives. The bayonet itself is not as important as the individual will to fight to the last. Though weapons vary across the ages, the will to stand can frequently bring victory against overwhelming odds. Thermopylae, Rorke's Drift, and Mogadishu to name a few examples.
Edited on Oct 1, 2010 at 5:07amSep '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
That's an interesting point KC. I had always heard that the main thrust (sorry :)) of bayonet training was the overcoming of inhibition and not for the actual skill itself. As someone who has been fragging avatars since the early 80's, I'm not sure that is the primary reason though. I'll gut you and dance on your corpse online, but, still find myself fishing insects out of my pool because I don't want them to drown.
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Someone just sent this to me on Twitter: British officer wins two gallantry awards for fending off Taliban attack with bayonet. I guess that training does come in handy sometimes. Thank God that guy's on our side.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Basic training, Ft. Sill Oklahoma, 2005. Bayonet training was a tad inane (I was 17 at the time). Soldiers and Marines should not get within bayonet range of enemy subversives. Time is a scarce resource during training. Drill sergeants (Army) and drill instructors (Marine Corps) have a limited amount of time in boot camp to instruct their recruits on a fantastically broad range of subjects. Time thus should be allocated properly, i.e., towards training recruits in such a way so as to maximize their ability to defend the nation against foreign aggression. Training should be tailored towards the combat conditions and objectives. Bayonets are largely for Tennysonesque charges, not counter-insurgency. Bayonet training (not to be confused with knife combatives) should be replaced with additional small arms training. You will operate an M249 machine gun overseas; you won't lead romantic, fixed bayonet assaults on static enemy positions.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Our drill sergeants didn't need to give us knives to de-wussify us. The high-stress, high-pressure, "I'll axe murder you if you call me Sir again" environment sufficed. If they really want to toughen recruits, make the ruck marches longer, the rucksacks heavier, the physical training more arduous, the yelling louder, the sleep shorter, the night "fire guard" watch longer, etc. The military is divided into traditionalists and modernists. The former hate change and the latter embrace it. I'll stick with the latter.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
All true, but the Highlanders didn't rush headlong into a glorious death for romantic reasons. They were trapped, cornered, lost. And escaped with only minor injuries. So it did have a practical use recently.
Though admittedly, a good chunk of the attachment is a Kipling/Lawrence of Arabia/Bernard Cornwell romanticism.
Jul '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
The linkage was Army analysis, not mine. But having been exposed to some cognitive psychology and driver's ed, under stress human beings are more effective if they have trained for the situation. The WW II generation played war with their friends during play time. The FPS generation has spent far more hours in a closer situational approximation. When do I change weapons? When do I go with what I have out? When do I close? When do I flee? Also, the shift to younger draftees in Vietnam was shown to result in recruits with fewer outspoken qualms, so there is more than one factor involved.
Sep '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Without betraying confidences, I have met people who have been trainers for various "Special Operators" as they are called in the trade (Special Forces in other words) and I can assure you that under pressure, everyone reverts to their training.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Combat with a spear (gun with bayonet) and a knife are different. It wouldn't hurt to train for both types of combat. I'm sure each has its advantages. But I agree that it's probably a question of priorites.
You read that in an article? I've grown up with first-person shooter games. While I don't doubt that I've learned quite a lot about combat from them (trajectories, the Coriolis effect, environmental awareness, the value of grenades in urban warfare, etc), I do doubt that they've prepared me for seeing what a bullet -- my bullet -- does to a person's body. It's different trying to kill a real person when your own life is on the line, I'm sure.
Edited on Oct 1, 2010 at 8:02amRe: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Dr. Kohn's analysis rings true. There are plenty of skills that are drilled into the mind and body in boot camp that may never be called into use after graduation. Success in battle will never hinge on the ability to fold one's underwear in perfect 6 inch squares, or the ability of a formation to execute a perfect column half-right, but the discipline and attention to detail instilled in the process can spell mission success. Similarly, training that helps overcome the natural and understandable reluctance to take a life is valuable, whether we fix bayonets or not. There have been plenty of instances of close quarter combat in the War On Terror to underscore the usefulness of this type of training, be it bayonet, knife, or hand to hand. Lastly, Dr. Kohn was also the Air Force Historian back when I was on active duty. I met with him on more than one occasion, and know his knowledge of military history to be encyclopedic. One of the most impressive gentlemen I've ever had the good fortune to meet, I give his perspective great credence.
Jul '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Few people are aware that the Navy stopped training sailors in celestial navigation about a decade ago.
If an enemy succeeds in destroying our GPS satellite net, our navy literally won't know where they are.
Jul '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Anyone who has read their history knows that one of the engagements at Gettysburg was settled by a bayonet charge. Joshua Chamberlain led a charge down from the summit area of Little Round Top when his men had run out of ammunition. They sent the Confederate forces on the run. Anyone who has ever faced a bayonet charge realizes how terrifying it can be. It is just one more skill that ground troops are trained in to increase their effectiveness. Following WW2 it was felt that ground combat was no longer feasible. As a consequence many young, poorly trained American boys were killed in the early phases of the Korean War when they were attacked by nearly as poorly trained NKPA soldiers. Ground troops need to be trained in all of the traditional forms of ground combat, including digging foxholes and bayonet drill, or the next time around they may be just as badly beaten as they were in the early battles of the Korean War. Ultimately, it is the soldier on the ground who wins a war.
Jun '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Been there, done that.
The majority of trainees in Army basic are not going to the combat arms (infantry, armor, artillery,etc). Cooks, mechanics, computer specialists etc all go through basic so the training is of little value for the those trainees.
In the all-volunteer army, those that self-select for the combat arms are not likely to have any lack of aggression or qualms about their ability to shoot bad guys. The few that might will get over it quickly when they experience in-coming and see a buddy hit.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Perhaps shaving a little sock and underwear folding from the training schedule would allow some time for bayonet training. Call me old school, but I remember raking leaves on a beautiful fall day during Basic Training at Ft. Knox, KY; perhaps that time could have been used to further hone my combat effectiveness. To be completely honest, I had KP duty the day we had bayonet training. Fortunately, I never had to Fix Bayonets! at my desk as an accounting clerk. I think that bayonet skills would fall into the "you never need it 'till you need it" category.
Jul '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
I take it the Marines still do it.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
The debate reminds me of arguments over first strike capability during the height of the Cold War when smart people realized that nuclear warheads meant little without delivery capability. Knives and bayonets don't do a lot at 50 paces unless you can throw them.
May '10
Re: The Pros and Cons of Bayonet Training
Astonished that nobody has yet deployed "bringing knives to a gunfight". Shame!