The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
And the whole nation is nervous, my friends say.
The background to the referendum is summarized here. If you want to go into it very deeply, you could try here, though TESEV in my view gets Turkey wrong as often as it gets it right. Here's a compare-and-contrast version of the old and the proposed new constitutions.
Of the proposed 26 amendments, 24 are unexceptional. There are two clauses, however, that are dangerous. They bring the judiciary under the control of the prime minister. Anyone who understands the idea behind "separation of powers" will see immediately how this could be a very bad idea.
Unfortunately, that set does not comprise about 95 percent of the voters in Turkey, who have no idea that this is what they're voting for.
This article by Jihadwatch sums up the secularist case against the referendum. You need not be an arch-secularist to fear the outcome, however; you need only suspect it would be unwise to grant dictatorial powers to the Turkish prime minister, no matter his party or political disposition.
Note the comment underneath that article:
defender | September 11, 2010 12:18 AM | Reply
Today is 9/11.
DO NOT EVER FORGET WHAT PAIN AND DESTRUCTION WAS BROUGHT TO YOU ON THIS DAY 9 YEARS AGO.
I don't think we've forgotten. But I still see little evidence that we're prepared, as a result, to pay the kind of close attention to developments abroad that may further the spread of the ideology that animated the hijackers or may undermine our allies in the struggle against the regimes that sponsor and enable terrorism.
I know that this referendum simply doesn't interest Americans. I know because I've seen no reference to it whatsoever in the news here. I was in the Green Room at Fox in New York on Friday to talk about Obama's economic policy. I tried to persuade the producers to allow me to explain what was at stake in Turkey today, on any news segment. I couldn't persuade them. The breaking news about Angie Eberhardt's views on overly-thin fashion models was apparently more important.
I disagree. Perhaps you will too.
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Jul '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Wow, that's boring.
Could you and Wilson just talk this one out between yourselves?
I'll be over at the drunk-kids-in-Georgetown thread.
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
For Turkish friends who may have just joined the conversation, please allow me to introduce Kenneth, whose comment was, I assure you, tongue in cheek. Some Americans do care.
Jul '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
We have Turks on here?
Please ignore my quip. You kinda have to have been in on a long previous conversation to understand.
Truth is, we do care about Turkey.
And we're hoping you do the right thing, by your lights.
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
We sure do. We have Turkish members, even. And since I just posted this to Facebook, we may have many Turkish visitors today.
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
oemoral Early prediction: 52-56% Yes 46-48% No #referendum #Turkey3 minutes ago via TweetDeck
T @jmsardo: RT @nuhyilmaz: counted votes 22.5% yes 73.3%, no vote 26.7% most of the counted votes frm Kurdish areas #turkish #referendum5 minutes ago via HootSuite
EastanbulTimes MP BDP İbrahim Binici told AKP voted instead of citizens #URFA http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/15761140.asp?gid=373 #Turkey #referendum
RT @jmsardo @_AEK_: #Referendum #Turkey 5.51 pm Yes: 74.2% No: 25.8 % - Still counting. (There's an official embargo until 9 pm, local time) 17 minutes ago via Twittelator
RT @_AEK_: 18:16 p.m local Yes:65% No: 34.2% #Turkish #referendum #provisory results. (embargo untill 9 pm. 30% of votes counted)2 minutes ago via HootSuite
May '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
I care, but I won't pretend I understand how Turkey's government works now or precisely what's at stake. Losing separation of powers isn't good, but that's an American principle which I suspect would seem odd to many peoples of that region. Even Britain, from which our government is most closely descended, doesn't seem to emphasize the importance of separation of powers as much as we do.
Edited on Sep 12, 2010 at 8:26amAug '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
I second this emotion.
Good point. How many governments besides ours have ever made a big deal out of separation of powers? And separation of powers is a principle that many Americans don't even get, even though it's supposed to be basic to American civics.
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Let me add a few points that might help further explain the picture. In Turkey, party leaders tend to exercise near-dictatorial control over their parties. Voters don't vote directly elect their MPs, they vote for the party, so in effect they hand control to one man, when you have single-party domination of the parliament (as we have now). The judiciary and the military have until now functioned as checks on the power of that man. Now one part of the tripod has been knocked out. And the military is not a healthy place for the rest of the power to repose, because it has only one blunt weapon at its disposal. It knows full well that using it means dragging Turkey back to a very dark age.
Aug '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
I want to share Dr. Berlinksi's concern, but I am having a hard time. Given my ignorance of the political situation in Turkey I should just shut up, but I would like to explain (if not defend) my lack of excitement over the current referendum and that perceived by her in many here.
I look at the history of countries with great constitutions and despotic regimes. I look at the history of Britain with no written constitution but a regime I could happily live under. I think about how France moved from a third to a fourth republic, maintaining a polity and avoiding a potentially bloody civil conflict while jettisoning and replacing the constitution. And it reinforces the notion that a constitution is not the source or guarantor of freedom, but is a lagging indicator of it.
I love and revere our Constitution, and I expect that my American political opponents do the same. And I think it is that expectation, more than the paper itself, that is the source of our polity.
So I see Turkey, always at the border between East and West, taking another step East. Concern, yes, but what can we do?
May '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Hmm. These reforms seem in many ways to make Turkey's government more Western in nature, more E.U.-ish--increasing civilian control over the military, for instance. Even the executive appointment of justices doesn't seem outrageous (in fact it seems perfectly normal to Americans).
What a drag that in this case--like a burqa ban in Europe--we apparently need to support policies in another country--for realities specific to that country--that we would not want here in the States. It forces us to make pretty nuanced arguments to the people of Turkey, and I can't blame them for their ambivalence.
Edited on Sep 12, 2010 at 9:10amMay '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
That's a great summary, Claire. Thanks.
So it's basically a parliamentary government, correct? It sounds similar to Britain, with the military being the major difference.
I agree (if I understand you), Mark, that government serves and reflects culture, so government should not normally be the focus. But government can wreak havoc by taking a sudden turn away from its people's values.
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
I just noticed that "we." A totally unconscious slip. That's a case of what the State Department used to call "clientitis."
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/yes-vote-leads-in-turkey-referendum-report-20100913-15777.html
Jul '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Claire Berlinski
I just noticed that "we." A totally unconscious slip. That's a case of what the State Department used to call "clientitis." · Sep 12 at 9:11am
Nice harem pants.
Aug '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Claire Berlinski
I just noticed that "we." A totally unconscious slip. That's a case of what the State Department used to call "clientitis." · Sep 12 at 9:11am
Actually, I think this not a mistake, but is instead your point: that we all have the current situation in Turkey to deal with, that Turkey matters to us. And what you are unhappy with is the majority who see the situation "as they have now".
Edited on Sep 12, 2010 at 9:31amAug '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Oops. I meant from a fourth to fifth. The third to fourth wasn't so bloodless.
Aug '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Kenneth
Nice harem pants. · Sep 12 at 9:17am
Heyyy... harem pants are the "in" thing right now! All the celebrities are doing it. Ergo, harem pants will save the world.
Now, a gal with a freakishly small waist and thunder thighs might find that harem pants draw attention to her, um, assets while concealing her defects. But harem pants aren't generally the thing for showing off a gazelle-like set of gams.
Though if anyone reasonably gazelle-like could pull off harem pants with aplomb, I'd bet on Claire.
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PS: Sorry for distracting from the topic: annoying Kenneth is just fun. Now, back to talking Turkey.
Edited on Sep 12, 2010 at 9:57amJul '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Kenneth
Nice harem pants. · Sep 12 at 9:17am
Heyyy... harem pants are the "in" thing right now! All the celebrities are doing it. Ergo, harem pants will save the world.
Now, a gal with a freakishly small waist and thunder thighs might find that harem pants draw attention to her, um, assets while concealing her defects. But harem pants aren't generally the thing for showing off a gazelle-like set of gams.
But if anyone reasonably gazelle-like could pull off harem pants with aplomb, I'd bet on Claire. · Sep 12 at 9:54am
"Gams?"
You've been hanging out with Sajak too much.
By...the...way...I've been meaning to ask you: what's up with that moniker?
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
It passed.
Aug '10
Re: The Polls Just Closed in Turkey
Any thoughts on the likely consequences, Claire?