The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
We already have a few posts today about Michele Bachmann's defense of marriage pledge that notes two parent Black households were more likely to exist under slavery than today.
Funny though - people who are focused on one issue will see the pledge differently than others. Over at Atlas Shrugged, the headline reads "Bachmann First Presidential Candidate to Sign Anti-Sharia Pledge."
When I first read the headline, I thought, "Wow 2 pledge signings in 1 day. I bet Grover Norquist is looking for her right now."
When I read further, it turns out to be the same pledge. Traditional marriage folks are calling it the marriage pledge, but others are calling it the anti-Sharia pledge. Liberals, as usual, are just calling it racist without considering it.
So once again politicians running for President are showing some level of concern about keeping Sharia from America.
I posted here and asked whether or not I should be concerned about creeping Sharia, or if fear of Sharia in America is really a postion taken by alarmists. I'm not yet convinced it's a problem, but politicians pay attention to it none the less.
It is noteworthy that super-majority Muslim countries like Turkey and Indonesia don't have Sharia. What chance is there that a super-majority Christian nation like America is really going to adopt any semblance of an Islamic culture?
I'll keep my mind open and keep listening and learning as the campaign goes on.
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Dec '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
We don't need Sharia for them to win. We only need to allow ourselves to become Dhimmis through the pressure of multiculturalism and we are well on our way there. Every other speck of religion must be kept out of our public schools, but Imams can teach Islam in our public schools. Every other religion must be excluded from our public spaces, but we must provide footbaths for muslim taxi drivers at our airports.
Under Kagan, Harvard continued to exclude military recruiters, but allowed the establishment of a school of Sharia Finance.
Our extremist environmental organizations that sue the EPA to shut down the construction of powerlines, pipelines, powerplants, and energy extraction are funded with grants from the EPA, as well as the Muslim Brotherhood.
The Muslim Brotherhood does not need for us to accept Sharia, for now. They merely need for us to accept our status as Dhimmis, and be subservient to them. For now. They are patient. I am not bothering to post to links to document each example I have listed. They are easy enough to find, for yourselves. All of my examples are completely within the public domain and easily found.
Oct '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
I've always thought the biggest potential problem was not that Sharia would become the law of the land, but that it would be allowed for individual Muslims, in the name of religious diversity, who would then establish Sharia courts in Muslim communities, which would then become a state within a state, and eventually the U.S would be in a Turkey/Kurd or even Serbia/Kosovo situation.
This would take many years to develop, so there would probably be opportunities along the way to change course, but if enforcing border security is fascist, then I doubt it could be stopped once the ball started rolling.
Edited on Jul 9, 2011 at 5:31pmJun '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
This is similar to the Texas execution of the Mexican rapist and murderer. Obama and Bush wanted to cede to the U.N. If they had, an American could have been executed in Texas for the same crime a Mexican could not. Sharia allows Muslims to create their own exception to the U.S. legal system that OTMA (other than Muslim Americans) could not avoid. This is just more of the same identity politics of the left. I'll throw in the Michigan race case in their law school admission policy. We are creating a society where laws apply to some but not others. That is the beginning of a lawless and non civil order. This is very dangerous. Outlawing Sharia in the U.S. is essential, imho. Thanks for pointing this out, Tommy.
Dec '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
I am curious to know which part of Sharia conservatives find offensive or disturbing. I would suggest that in many respects Sharia is something that would be embraced by social conservatives because many Sharia principles are identical with the aims of social conservatives. For instance, Sharia rules regarding marriage prohibit gay marriage. Likewise Sharia prohibits liquor and gambling.
And far from suggesting that Sharia would limit religious freedom, Dhimmi or Dhimmitude (under the more traditional forms of Sharia) would seem to guarantee to Christians the freedom to practice their faith and to apply Christian laws (e.g. dietary laws) to their daily practice.
Again, a blanket promise to oppose Sharia (without some explanation) smacks of more racism by Bachman.
I will add this, there might be good legal reasons to oppose Sharia, but those arguments would be the same type someone makes when they suggest that New York should not adopt laws that have been adopted in California. But Bachman is not making legal arguments. Instead, she is appealing to prejudice.
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
The problem with this pledge--and with anyone who signs it--is that it reveals lack of knowledge of what it proposes to be a serious menace, and thus unseriousness about forming a policy toward it. If Sharia is a major threat to America, I expect the President to know what it is. The phrasing--"Sharia Islam"--that's the language in the pledge--tells me she doesn't. Sharia is not a branch of Islam like Sunni Islam. Sharia is Islamic law. It's not a trivial quibble, because this is basic--it's a mistake like saying the capitol of America is New York. I agree that Sharia is something Americans need to think about. Candidates should have a policy toward efforts to introduce it. But this tells me she has heard bad things about this "Sharia Islam" business, yet never thought it worth asking what it is. You cannot formulate an intelligible policy toward something you don't understand. It's as if at the height of the Cold War she signed a pledge to combat "surplus-value communism"--it would reveal she had no idea what communists believe.
Edited on Jul 9, 2011 at 11:49pmDec '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Lets start with the rape and beating of your wife if she displeases you, and then move on to the murder of your progeny should they bring dishonor on your house.
You actually just said that openly declaring themselves to be lower forms of humanity (Dhimmi) would guarantee Christians the right to worship as they please.
How's that working out for Christians in Egypt? Or Syria? Or Iraq?
If you really do believe what you say, how do you deal with reality being so wildly divergent?
EDIT: I'm getting a little tired of being redacted for mild snark and ridicule, especially when worse is allowed to fly from others. Some ideas are so wildly idiotic that ridicule is the only appropriate response.
Edited on Jul 10, 2011 at 2:03pmJul '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Yep, she rushed to sign a family-values "vow" written by a couple of ignoramuses in a one-room leased office.
Dec '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
CoolHand
Lets start with the rape and beating of your wife if she displeases you, and then move on to the murder of your progeny should they bring dishonor on your house.
If you really do believe what you say, how do you deal with reality being so wildly divergent? ·
Actually I asked a question: what aspects of Sharia do conservatives find distasteful? I also suggested that one could advance proper legal arguments to oppose Sharia, in the same way we oppose adoption of "foreign" laws every day.
I also suggested that we may have much to learn from the Moslem community.
Finally I suggested that Bachman's vow to oppose Sharia did not reflect any real reflection or thought about Sharia. I agree with you that our "friends" in Egypt and Iraq often betray our values. I am not sure if that is attributable to Sharia, or to the fact that their political aims may diverge from ours.
Which gets back to my question: what is wrong with Sharia? Your point is very good, it does not respect women. What else is wrong?
Jul '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Harry Huntington
...
Which gets back to my question: what is wrong with Sharia? Your point is very good, it does not respect women. What else is wrong? · Jul 10 at 12:07am
Do a web search. Why do you seem to think that CoolHand is your research assistant? There isn't a lot acceptable about Sharia, and it exceeds the 200 word limit very quickly to go into any significant detail on a very elaborate codex.
Capital punishment for apostates from Islam is a pretty popular example in little, obscure backwaters of no consequence. Like Egypt and Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. No place Americans need to concern themselves with.
Jul '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
When I see "Sharia Islam" I translate it to political Islam and move on. I think you are making a mistake putting too much weight on the term. American political discussion on Islam the last ten years has been full of awkward wordings, it has been an amusing mirror of what I've seen coming the other way for over three decades.
I do not think Sharia is a major threat to the United States, as in something that will be generally accepted here any time soon, but our Presidents have spent too much time pretending there is no colonization effort and that the Muslim Brotherhood is the YMCA. I won't reassess the threat down to nil until our government speaks like an adult on the topic.
Mar '11
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Claire, you couldn't be more right here.
Aug '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Harry Huntington
I also suggested that we may have much to learn from the Moslem community.
Like what, precisely? The proper wear of the Keffia? How to create a welfare state that guarantees a 30% unemployment rate? A work ethic that makes Italians look like beavers?
Please tell me Professor Huntington, elucidate for me the virtues of the Moslem community that you would like to discuss - I mean I haven't even gotten to the chronic pederasty portion in my list above.
Dec '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Sisyphus
Do a web search. Why do you seem to think that CoolHand is your research assistant? There isn't a lot acceptable about Sharia, and it exceeds the 200 word limit very quickly to go into any significant detail on a very elaborate codex.
So your concern is with what I will call "Sharia as applied in some countries." If you did a little web search of your own (or perhaps participated in the market) you might discover that a growing segment of the private equity market invests in for lack of a better term "Sharia compliant" investment vehicles. Sharia prohibits certain business conduct that might otherwise be "legal." Thus, for the market in "Sharia compliant" private equity to expand, by necessity, US courts must be willing and able to apply Sharia to resolve business disputes. When the choice of law provision in a private contract reads "Sharia" it will be Sharia.
Now, on "public policy" grounds US courts may void certain contract clauses. If you have a blanket Sharia ban that would be one option. But a blanket ban on Sharia in US courts is not capital investment friendly, or business friendly.
That's why I ask.
Edited on Jul 10, 2011 at 8:09amDec '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Sisyphus
I do not think Sharia is a major threat to the United States, as in something that will be generally accepted here any time soon, but our Presidents have spent too much time pretending there is no colonization effort and that the Muslim Brotherhood is the YMCA. I won't reassess the threat down to nil until our government speaks like an adult on the topic. · Jul 10 at 12:43am
Perhaps you should think again about Sharia being "here." By some accounts the scope of the Sharia compliant global finance market already exceeds $1 trillion. It may be fair to say that you cannot expect to do significant business in Middle Eastern, South Asian, London, French, or German markets without being willing to engage in, or at least explore, Sharia compliant business dealings. US export driven companies will have to be ready to adopt Sharia compliant practices if they expect entry into some new markets.
The real issue is not whether some man in New Jersey wants his divorce court to apply Sharia; the real issue is whether the "free traders" are willing to go "all in" on Sharia or if folks are willing to draw a line.
Oct '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Harry Huntington
Sisyphus
Do a web search. W
So your concern is with what I will call "Sharia as applied in some countries." If you did a little web search of your own (or perhaps participated in the market) you might discover that a growing segment of the private equity market invests in for lack of a better term "Sharia compliant" investment vehicles. .....
That's why I ask. · Jul 10 at 7:58am
Edited on Jul 10 at 08:09 am
Sunni fiqh, includes Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali.
Most Shia Muslims follow the Ja'fari school of thought.
Allowing any legal precedent to be established that is explicitly based on Sharia would be a mistake.
As for Sharia compliant financial instruments, they would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis for promoting crime; if a Sharia compliant 'fund' invested in Hamas sponsored projects in Gaza, and Hamas is designated a terrorist group, then the fund would be in violation of the law. Maybe the RICO act could be used to bring criminal charges.
Jan '11
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Harry Huntington
So your concern is with what I will call "Sharia as applied in some countries." If you did a little web search of your own (or perhaps participated in the market) you might discover that a growing segment of the private equity market invests in for lack of a better term "Sharia compliant" investment vehicles.
And so your concern is only with Sharia as applied to finance?
Unfortunately, it can't be limited that way. Islamists are quite enthusiastic about forcing other aspects of Sharia down our throats, such as the part about any critique of Islam being blasphemy and subject to the death sentence - and not just "as applied in some countries," but worldwide. Did you fail to notice the Danish cartoon crisis, the assassination of Theo van Gogh, Molly Norris' being forced into hiding here in America...oh, I give up. Sisyphus is right; there's not space enough to discuss the subject in 200-word posts, and why should we be your research assistants?
Aug '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Harry Huntington
Sharia prohibits certain business conduct that might otherwise be "legal." Thus, for the market in "Sharia compliant" private equity to expand, by necessity, US courts must be willing and able to apply Sharia to resolve business disputes. When the choice of law provision in a private contract reads "Sharia" it will be Sharia.
Why do you equate enforcing private contracts among parties that happen to agree to certain terms because of mutual religious belief with enforcing religious law?
People can agree to terms in a contract for pretty much any reason they like, can't they? I mean, if vegetarian parties to a contract included "vegetarian terms", we wouldn't call enforcing that contract "vegetarian law", would we? (And if we would, please explain why, Professor Lawyer.)
If both parties agree that certain practices are out-of-bounds, I don't see why the reasons for them agreeing makes much difference: the point is that they reached mutual agreement, for whatever reasons.
By all means, let people include their religious principles in the contracts they make. But have those contracts enforced in our courts because they're contracts, not because we adopt Sharia or other religious laws.
Edited on Jul 10, 2011 at 10:07amAug '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Observant Jews in this country apply Jewish Law to their financial dealings, without, as far as I can tell, needing special accommodations carved out of our legal system just for them. True, they have Beth Din, but it respects secular law while settling religious disputes -- is this kind of "religious law" really that much different from the BBB's dispute resolution service?
Likewise, observant Catholics may choose to respect Catholic financial teachings by, for example, investing in Ave Maria mutual funds. They do not need their own legal system to do this, they make private arrangements under the legal system we already have.
And while it's true that many denominations of Christianity have ecclesiastical courts of some kind, these courts are for resolving internal disputes, and are still subject to the law of the land, not in competition with it.
Religions besides Islam have reach a peace between observing religious and legal law in this country without subjecting our legal system to their religion. I expect Islam to be able to do the same. If it won't and wants more, tough.
Edited on Jul 10, 2011 at 3:17pmSep '10
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
How in the world did a DOM pledge get morphed into an Anti-Sharia Pledge, anyway? I'll tell ya how--by blithely accepting this spin from another media outlet, even if (this time) that outlet is generally a good bedfellow.
Another example of letting others set the terms of the debate.
Mar '11
Re: The Other Part of Bachmann's Pledge - No Sharia
Harry Huntington:
And far from suggesting that Sharia would limit religious freedom, Dhimmi or Dhimmitude (under the more traditional forms of Sharia) would seem to guarantee to Christians the freedom to practice their faith and to apply Christian laws (e.g. dietary laws) to their daily practice.
Only IF Christians submit that they're not equal to Muslims, and while guaranteed some rights, this only applies if Christians and Jews pay the Jizya... literally a kind of fee. Jizya is equivalent to the protection rackets that the mob has been running on small businesses for years.