The Other Big Question
There's been much discussion in the MSM and the blogosphere linking the vitriolic language of politics with the appalling act of violence just committed in Tucson, as well as much discussion of the discussion -- is it relevant? Is it appropriate? Is it opportunistic? Is it base?
But there's another conversation to be had in the wake of the attack. I was talking to a friend yesterday about the shootings -- another transplanted American married to an Israeli -- and her response was an impassioned plea for across-the-board gun control in the US. The argument was striking to my ears simply because it's been such a very long time since I've heard anyone propose such a thing. Israel is, after all, something of a case study of the lack of correlation between a ubiquity of guns and crazy gun violence. There are M-16s slung on the backs of young soldiers everywhere, my eight-year-old walks past an armed guard on his way into school every morning -- even I, nondescript suburban Mom that I am, am routinely asked if I'm packing every time I park my car in an underground lot or walk into a mall. (If I were carrying, I would be asked to show my gun license.) Schoolteachers and school officials are permitted (provided they are IDF veterans, as they almost invariably are) to wear guns to class (and the only school shooting I can think of was a Hamas terrorist attack in a yeshiva lunchroom two years ago). Incidents of soldiers using their weapons to commit acts of violence at home have occurred, but are extremely rare.
In short: guns are in full view and pretty readily available here. But here's the thing: they're not handed out like candy, and you can't buy whatever floats your boat. Loughner is not a veteran, is only 22 and has a drug offense on his record. Those points alone would likely have quashed any attempt by an equivalent young Israeli to get a gun license. He would also have been required to present certification from a medical doctor that he is fit to carry a weapon, and all the reports I've read concur that Loughner had been behaving very strangely for quite some time prior to his purchasing a gun -- so much so that there is retroactive speculation that he is schizophrenic. The odds of such behavior being completely ignored by a doctor certifying a gun license applicant on behalf of the Israeli health ministry are slim to nil.
Also, I understand Loughner was using a “high-capacity” ammunition magazine in a semiautomatic; he was thus able to shoot off thirty rounds before having to stop to reload. Leaving aside the magazine for a moment, on what possible grounds was this kid issued a semiautomatic? In Israel, if I'm not mistaken, the only civilians who can get their hands on semiautomatics are "licensed animal control officers," and their licenses entitle them only to limited-capacity magazines. Surely some regulation is a good thing?
I'm fully aware that historically, the disarming of the population is often a precursor to tyranny and strongly support the right of the individual to defend him- or herself; it's abhorrent that anyone should be required to abdicate that right. But there are ways and means. The "thin end of the wedge" argument -- that it's dangerous to allow regulation of the sale of semiautomatics to unstable young people because that'll trickle down to bans on the purchase of 12-gauge shotguns by upstanding citizens who wouldn't dream of using them outside a duck blind -- is more than just silly; it costs lives. The phrase "gun control" has come to connote "eventual gun ban", but perhaps it's time to take back the narrative, no? The convulsive desire to ban all guns in the wake of a gun atrocity is patently absurd -- but I'd argue that some control is clearly needed here. Would you agree?
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Comments :
Re: The Other Big Question
I would agree.
Great post. Curious to read others' responses.
Re: The Other Big Question
Ah, this is fascinating given the argument I'm sure we've all heard--"But everyone in Israel carries and nothing like this ever happens."
Parenthetically, Judith, how on earth are they controlling animals in Israel? And why do Israeli animals need that kind of control? What's wrong with a net or a tranquilizer dart?
Jun '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Show me a gun law backed up by statistical data that would make the country safer, and I would be all for it. The problem with the discussion is that gun control advocates are never honest about their agenda or their intentions. We're seeing it now in the Tuscon tragedy. Every incident, proposed law, discussion, claim, public statement, what have you, by the left is designed for one purpose: advance the agenda through propaganda. It's who and what they are.
Edited on Jan 11, 2011 at 5:59amRe: The Other Big Question
~Paules: Show me a gun law backed up by statistical data that would make the country safer, and I would be all for it. · Jan 11 at 5:57am
Edited on Jan 11 at 05:59 am
Is this possible? I mean, how could they provide data about a hypothetical?
Listen, I know nothing of the debates. I am completely naive about the history of the gun movement here or elsewhere. But I'm simply curious about a strong counterargument for this:
Nov '10
Re: The Other Big Question
I am in complete agreement with you. That a guy this troubled could get his hands on this kind of gun is outrageous. However, I don't believe the "gun control" argument will go anywhere for reasons you stated.
On a side note - to what extent can we push comparisons between Israel and the US? This comparison is frequently made in relationship to air travel and now with respect to guns. Just wondering...
Jun '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Ursula Hennessey
~Paules: Show me a gun law backed up by statistical data that would make the country safer, and I would be all for it. · Jan 11 at 5:57am
Edited on Jan 11 at 05:59 am
Is this possible? I mean, how could they provide data about a hypothetical?
Yes, it's not only possible, but such laws are already on the books. Everybody who purchases a firearm legally must go through a background check. The process automatically eliminates people in certain categories. These include minors, felons, people with a conviction for domestic violence, drug users, and people with a history of mental instability. Does it catch them all? No system can. Jared Loughner would have been denied the purchase of a firearm had the Pima Co. sheriff followed up on complaints about the boy's behaviour which included threats to kill people. The incident was preventable, but law enforcement in this case was derelict in its duty.
Edited on Jan 11, 2011 at 6:26amMay '10
Re: The Other Big Question
In Japan, where getting a gun is difficult (but not impossible), occasionally there are mass killings, either with knives, or sometimes with cars and trucks.
Imagine that this guy had been denied a gun. How much damage could he have done by driving a car into crowd at high speed?
BTW, I am mildly sympathetic to the idea of gun control, but I believe a reasonable reading of the constitution makes it unconstitutional. Living in Japan has made me appreciate the relationship between freedom and law & order. It is more or less true that a 20-year old woman, after having a couple drinks, could get off a subway train randomly anywhere in Tokyo at 11 PM and the chances that she will be raped or killed are close to zero. That means she has freedom of movement that Americans don't have (but don't think about much, since they avoid situations like that instinctively).
Re: The Other Big Question
~Paules
Ursula Hennessey
~Paules: Show me a gun law backed up by statistical data that would make the country safer, and I would be all for it. · Jan 11 at 5:57am
Edited on Jan 11 at 05:59 am
Is this possible? I mean, how could they provide data about a hypothetical?
Yes, it's not only possible, but such laws are already on the books. Everybody who purchases a firearm legally must go through a background check. The process automatically eliminates people in certain categories. These include minors, felons, people with a conviction for domestic violence, drug users, and people with a history of mental instability. Does it catch them all? No system can. Jared Loughner would have been denied the purchase of a firearm had the Pima Co. sheriff followed up on complaints about the boy's behaviour which included threats to kill people. The incident was preventable, but law enforcement in this case was derelict in its duty. · Jan 11 at 6:24am
Edited on Jan 11 at 06:26 am
Interesting. Did not know that. Thanks.
Jun '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Ursula Hennessey
~Paules
Ursula Hennessey
~Paules: Show me a gun law backed up by statistical data that would make the country safer, and I would be all for it. · Jan 11 at 5:57am
Edited on Jan 11 at 05:59 am
Is this possible? I mean, how could they provide data about a hypothetical?
Jared Loughner would have been denied the purchase of a firearm had the Pima Co. sheriff followed up on complaints about the boy's behaviour which included threats to kill people. The incident was preventable, but law enforcement in this case was derelict in its duty. · Jan 11 at 6:24am
Edited on Jan 11 at 06:26 am
Interesting. Did not know that. Thanks. · Jan 11 at 6:29am
You can thank the new media. A blogger in Pima Co. made the claim on his site yesterday. It appears to be credible. Eventually the word will get out. But you won't see the MSM cover this part of the story because they have an agenda. Typical but not unexpected.
Aug '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Criminals do not buy their guns in the gun stores. They have to rely on the black market which is thriving everywhere. As there is a vast infrastructure for the drug trade, there is always one for weapons.
As with the myth of Mexican narcos coming to America to buy guns at shows, the myth of readily available guns in this country will be maintained by the agenda-driven press.
Additionally, you cannot purchase automatic weapons unless you are the holder of certain permits. Permits that require a good deal of background scrutiny.
Extended clips and magazines are sold for enthusiasts, to imagine that they are produced for and sold only to prospective mass murderers is the kind of fantasy that has become an "urban legend" in the fevered minds of the liberal establishment.
No more than knife sharpeners exist to make the knife cut better, rather than allowing potential slashers to be more effective killers.
Even responding to this gibberish is a myth. Disarming the populace is liberal fascism, and always has been.
Oct '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Perhaps this interview with John Lott, Jr. could help add clarity:
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html
His book, More Guns, Less Crime is controversial because it goes against the emotional wishes of many people... "we have to do something".
Incidentally, semi-automatic gun simply means that when you pull the trigger, the gun automatically chambers another round, then... you have to pull the trigger again. The confusion is, deliberate in my view, between semi-automatic, as in the old Colt revolvers you see in cowboy movies, and fully automatic, as in machine gun. The same is true about the term assault weapon. Is this a fully automatic gun, outlawed in the US since 1928, or simply a semi-automatic rifle like that carried by almost all deer hunters?
Bottom line, why has the Left pushed so hard for gun control? Two reasons, the major reason is to make the public fully dependent on the government policing function for safety. Their showing up with clipboards and investigators after your loved one is already dead is truly comforting, and the other big reason, if the Left ever gets the control they seek, your gun is gone.
Jun '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Whenever something terrible happens there are always calls by some for the government to pass some laws to "fix" it. With all the 100's of thousands of laws and regulations... even if there were twice as many...terrible things will still happen. Crazy people will still slip through the cracks. Sane people will still snap and go berserk in a moment. Life is not certain. We are free men and women. If we wish to stay that way, tragedies like this one, will, on occasion, test our mettle and our conscience, but we must move on. If we ask government to protect and cradle us, we will become enslaved. And that, friends, would be the greatest tragedy of all.
Sep '10
Re: The Other Big Question
This could already have been prevented by a plethora of existing laws. Nothing needs* to be done to stop it from happening again. The people responsible for not doing their jobs need to be indetified and publicly punished. Time and again this occurs and all we get is more useless legislation rather than highly visible punishment for bureaucrats who fail in their public duty.
* Nothing acceptable to a free society can stop a deranged individual from doing horrible things.
May '10
Re: The Other Big Question
I have econometrician John R. Lott's book More Guns, Less Crime, the 2nd ed. It is the most comprehensive and exhaustive statistical/econometric study of gun controls laws. In it, he concludes that as the number of gun permits increases, crime decreases and that a definitive causal link exists.
Dec '10
Re: The Other Big Question
I'm frankly rather encouraged by the comments that I've read on this - the Ricochet community IS intelligent and reasonable.
The one area where I've always considered myself "out of lockstep" with the conservative philosophy in the US has been gun control. I grew up in Canada - from age 6 to HS graduation. The health care system - at least back in the 70's when I was growing up - appeared to work well, but as I've gotten older I've heard many troubling stories of people waiting for bypass surgeries and the like. My best friend went through 3 postponements over the past 3 months, for example. I've come to staunchly distrust a socialized system.
But I still wonder about some type of gun control. I know, the slippery slope and all that, but I've often thought that it would be helpful to law enforcement if there were some sort of database with striations of all guns manufactured, for instance. I certainly don't have all of the answers - I just wonder.
The thing that strikes me here, however - I expected a fierce backlash on this topic. Didn't happen. Way to go Ricochet!
Re: The Other Big Question
Paules hits the essential point: Focusing on a mechanism to further restrict gun purchases by unstable individuals while simultaneously refusing to adjudicate these same people as unstable on grounds of civil liberties, privacy or whatever is Sisyphean. We have plenty of laws on the books to prevent the likes of Jared Lee Loughner from owning firearms, but success depends upon Sheriff Dupnik taking a pause from media ubiquity and liberal politicking to actually do his job.
Edited on Jan 11, 2011 at 8:38amMay '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Judith, there is nothing special or unusual about "semiautomatics". Almost all handguns sold in the US, and a large fraction of rifles and shotguns, are semiautomatic. A semiautomatic gun fires one round each time you pull the trigger, then ejects the empty cartridge and loads the next round.
By "striations" do you mean ballistic fingerprinting--the idea that each gun as some kind of distinctive marks that it leaves on the bullet? This idea is flawed, because even if each gun left distinctive marks, the marks change depending on the type of ammunition fired, and they change over the lifetime of the gun due to normal wear. There are a couple jurisdictions that have such a database, and as far as I know, they have proved very expensive to maintain and have been used to solve few crimes. Like Paules, I would need to see data that shows otherwise. Wouldn't help in this case anyway.
Edited on Jan 11, 2011 at 8:56amRe: The Other Big Question
A point in favor of Arizona firearms law is the ability of stable citizens to obtain concealed weapons permits. I just learned that had Mr. Loughner succeeded in reloading his Glock, Joe Zamudio was prepared to use lethal force against the killer.
Dec '10
Re: The Other Big Question
To Mark Wilson - thanks for the info. And I also understand that even if the ballistic fingerprinting were possible, how would you get the info on guns manufactured outside the US. I don't have the answers, but I'm also still uncomfortable with the current state of affairs.
I've been seeing some rumors this morning that perhaps the Pima Cty Sherriff's dept. holds some of the blame for failing to report some of the threats this guy made. Unfortunately I doubt that blame game is any more constructive than the tripe being produced by the lefty pundits.
May '10
Re: The Other Big Question
Exceptional events like this should rarely, if ever, be catalysts for reform.