The Nasty Face of Conservatism
After the flaming I've had on Ricochet recently with regards to homosexuality and drugs legalization, I've learned my lesson and now plan to stick resolutely to uncontroversial subjects.
So: abortion.
Here's a story in the UK press that my wife (who like me would consider herself a conservative) and I both found pretty shocking.
To obtain a termination under the Republican plan, women in Virginia would first be made to have an ultrasound, which would allow them to see their foetus and to hear its heartbeat.
During the first three months of pregnancy – when 80 per cent of abortions occur – such an ultrasound must be carried out by vaginal probe. The plan is furiously opposed by women's rights groups and Democrats.
It is due to be signed this week by the state's governor, Bob McDonnell, who is a high-profile ally of Mitt Romney, and is frequently tipped as a potential Republican vice-presidential candidate.
Opponents have grouped it with comparable rules elsewhere in the US, along with new measures to restrict contraception, to claim that the Republicans have launched a "war on women's health".
Virginia Democrats who oppose the ultrasound bill said that it would force women to undergo an invasive procedure that was akin to "state-sponsored rape."
Now I don't know how fair a representation this is of the facts on the ground. But I can tell you that even if it contains a scintilla of truth, it's an approach that most of us on this side of the Atlantic - including I'm guessing maybe 80 to 90 per cent of conservatives - would find wantonly vindictive and unpleasant. Some of you, I know will dismiss us as bien-pensant Euro weenies who have long since lost the moral plot. But speaking as one of the reddest-meat, most pro-gun, most anti-big-government, pro-Constitution, pro-liberty, pro-American conservative you are ever likely to meet, I'd just like those of you who support these kind of measures to pause and consider how it makes you look from the outside.
The reason I'm a conservative and proud to be a conservative is because I believe that ours is the philosophy that truly values human beings and works with human nature. The reason I despise liberals - well, not so much liberals, as their political philosophy - is that I see in almost everything they believe a deep intolerance masquerading as virtue, a determination to impose their Weltanschauung on EVERYONE, an urge to bully and control because, darn it, they KNOW they are right.
I referred to another example of this in my most enjoyable podcast with Paul Rahe the other day. The one where I cited the truly disgusting Anti-Saloon League chief enforcer Wayne Wheeler who just knew that alcohol was so wrong he considered it perfectly acceptable to persuade the US government to poison the nation's supply of industrial alcohol which (as everyone knew) was being used to make moonshine. This "Formula No. 5" - a mixture of methanol, pyridine bases and benzene, resulted in 10,000 deaths.
Wheeler joked about this: "If a man wishes to violate the Constitution of the United States he should be free to commit suicide in his own way."
I worry about this strain in US Conservatism, a) because I think it confirms all liberals worst prejudices and b) because it makes it that much less electorally attractive to the nation as a whole.
Discuss.
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Comments:
Oct '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
billy
wilber forge
Joseph Stanko
wilber forge:
A Social Security ID would be issued at conception as well. Would the parents need to name the embryo at that time to comply ? Or is it just embryo #xxx.xx.xxxx until the sex is established ?
Unless the unborn child is going to be working and earning a taxable income I don't see why he needs a Social Security number... · 2 minutes ago
May have missed something, but are not the young issued mandated Social Security IDs shortly after birth these days ? · 2 minutes ago
Unfortunately, yes. · 26 minutes ago
By the context of my original proposed solution, expand it to conception ?
And No, I do not like the concept one bit.
Nov '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
...cont
As Dr. M, a German concentration camp survivor and recipient of the Order of Canada, was leaving Brian asked him what he regarded as the greatest form of evil. Without hesitation, the abortionist replied, "To take an innocent human life".
"But", he said, "you do many abortions". Again the reply was immediate. "Brian, that's not a child -- it's a fish!"
James, there's only one issue to be resolved, and here I think I'm in agreement with Dr. M: is it a human being, or is it not? If yes, then abortion is an atrocity that no moral person and no civilized nation should abide. If no, then it is simply a matter of choice and medical procedure.
Many would say that this is a metaphysical decision. Yet it is a decision that must be made by someone. This law demands that the woman's decision be informed about the state of the cell mass in her uterus in the most straightforward way. As pointed out already, the ultrasound is already required as part of the procedure. Showing it to the Mom is the only novel aspect.
Jun '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
wilber forge
In a way, the certificate of live birth represents a gap and is excusal in a manner of speaking to parental responsibility as regards carrying to term. A buffer as it were.
The point was to define legal questions that would be agreeable to all.
What folly, that. · 1 hour ago
I don't know how long they've been issued, but certainly birth certificates have been issued long before abortion was practiced legally in this country? I don't really see what point you are trying to make - is it that a birth certificate is the granting of personhood?
Jun '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Flapjack
Christopher Esget
We could have avoided that little unpleasantness back in the 1860's, too, if busybodies had just agreed to not press the issue on whether certain beings were fully human. The audacity! Being right not only for themselves, but also for others. · 1 minute ago
Point well taken. Perhaps I think of my influence (as an individual) on others in various corners of the country in the same way that I hope to be influenced (i.e., coerced) by my federal government - that is, in a limited way. · 1 hour ago
I tend to agree with you. But I definitely want the full power of the government to be exercised with respect to murder. If the government does not act to defend the right of an innocent individual to live, then it has already become a capricious tyrant.
Jun '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Flapjack
But the Left can be out-lived and out-educated - in the long run. · 1 hour ago
I love your optimism, truly. But the left's virtual monopoly on the schools makes out-educating them a challenging proposition.
Edited on February 25, 2012 at 4:23amOct '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Christopher Esget
wilber forge
Well then, Apply the thought, may have been a better turn of phrase.
I think I was too subtle. I was trying to make a point about adoption as a viable option. · 1 minute ago
That was accepted as a given. And what might be the variables in the theme of all this ? If there are a lack of sincere questions and intent brought to the table, where does that leave us ?
Sep '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Dave Carter
With respect, you think you find it unpleasant? I hear tell it's absolute murder on the baby. · 30 minutes ago
Dang, wish I'd thought of that reply.
Jun '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
wilber forge
Christopher Esget
wilber forge
Well then, Apply the thought, may have been a better turn of phrase.
I think I was too subtle. I was trying to make a point about adoption as a viable option. · 1 minute ago
That was accepted as a given. And what might be the variables in the theme of all this ? If there are a lack of sincere questions and intent brought to the table, where does that leave us ? · 2 minutes ago
Honestly, I'm afraid I'm not following you.
Dec '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Christopher Esget
Flapjack
But the Left can be out-lived and out-educated - in the long run. · 1 hour ago
I love your optimism, truly. But the left's virtual monopoly on the schools makes out-educating them a challenging proposition. · 5 minutes ago
Edited 4 minutes ago
My former students might beg to differ. :)
Jun '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Flapjack
Christopher Esget
Flapjack
But the Left can be out-lived and out-educated - in the long run. · 1 hour ago
I love your optimism, truly. But the left's virtual monopoly on the schools makes out-educating them a challenging proposition. · 5 minutes ago
Edited 4 minutes ago
My former students might beg to differ. :) · 0 minutes ago
Glad to hear it. My parish runs a little classical school, with Latin begun in 3rd grade for most students. I go to work every morning motivating myself with the notion that Western civilization will collapse if I fail these students. ;)
But most of the time it feels like trying to put out a raging fire with a dixie cup and a damp washcloth.
Dec '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Christopher Esget
Glad to hear it. My parish runs a little classical school, with Latin begun in 3rd grade for most students. I go to work every morning motivating myself with the notion that Western civilization will collapse if I fail these students. ;)
But most of the time it feels like trying to put out a raging fire with a dixie cup and a damp washcloth. · 4 minutes ago
Each day, we put out a little bit of the fire. Or rather, kindle a truer fire, one that resides in its proper place within the individual. I'm thankful that you're out there with your dixie cup and damp cloth...and proper kindling.
Oct '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Christopher Esget
wilber forge
In a way, the certificate of live birth represents a gap and is excusal in a manner of speaking to parental responsibility as regards carrying to term. A buffer as it were.
The point was to define legal questions that would be agreeable to all.
What folly, that. · 1 hour ago
I don't know how long they've been issued, but certainly birth certificates have been issued long before abortion was practiced legally in this country? I don't really see what point you are trying to make - is it that a birth certificate is the granting of personhood? · 10 minutes ago
Outside of the mixed emotions and variables of what qualifies Personhood in the dialog.
There is no proof that until there is birth and the newborn tastes the new air of another world that it is granted admission and rights.
Therefore, the certificate of live birth and the greeting to a potential contributor to society.
Try to get by without a Birth Certificate. Might there be one out there as a simple Declaration of PersonHood that meets the legal demands ?
Mar '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
wilber forge
Try to get by without a Birth Certificate. Might there be one out there as a simple Declaration of PersonHood that meets the legal demands ? · 6 minutes ago
Who is arguing that we should do away with birth certificates?
Jun '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Wilber forge, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but your first and third sentences lack primary verbs. It's hard to understand what you are trying to say. But then, I'm tired, and perhaps all will be clear in the morning.
Nov '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
The nasty face of conservatism is trying to discourage women from having an abortion? I don't get it, I thought the nasty face of conservatism was Pat Buchanan. Looks like the VA Governor decided not to sign it, even though, well, this:
Don't want a TV ultrasound? Wait another week. The horror. Moot point, anyway. Discuss a law that's already in existence if you want to be outraged, like Texas's law.
Oct '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Christopher Esget
wilber forge
Christopher Esget
wilber forge
Well then, Apply the thought, may have been a better turn of phrase.
I think I was too subtle. I was trying to make a point about adoption as a viable option. · 1 minute ago
That was accepted as a given. And what might be the variables in the theme of all this ? If there are a lack of sincere questions and intent brought to the table, where does that leave us ? · 2 minutes ago
Honestly, I'm afraid I'm not following you. · 28 minutes ago
Then lets proceed with this. The original question one posted was intended to provide a solution to the the legal issues the seem to bog everyone down and wastes so much time. If life begins at conception, then there is no wiggle room. Period.
Adopt a lawfull structure to support that and then move on so that this issue cannot be used as the Third Rail of the political debate.
That is unless folks enjoy self abuse to absurd degrees.
Oct '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Picky, picky. Just the way one goes about it. And its late here as well.
Oct '10
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Fat Dave
wilber forge
Try to get by without a Birth Certificate. Might there be one out there as a simple Declaration of PersonHood that meets the legal demands ? · 6 minutes ago
Who is arguing that we should do away with birth certificates? · 26 minutes ago
Oddly enough, no one. For all the folk that defend that life begins at conception, the proof lies in the pudding as it were.
And that is a certificate of birth.
May '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
wilber forge: With all due respect to the devoted folks on this topic, invite all to consider a few future possiblilites.
For those that adopt that life begins at conception, why bother to have a certificate of live birth ? Logic follows that the document then needs to be updated, what would it be called ?
A Social Security ID would be issued at conception as well. Would the parents need to name the embryo at that time to comply ? Or is it just embryo #xxx.xx.xxxx until the sex is established ?
As the embryo now has been quantified as a child, with all rights and laws that apply, if the child expires before birth is the mother held liable for the death under what criminal code ?
Work with that. · 5 hours ago
If Mr. Delingpole is going to rely upon you as a wingman, you're going to have to do better than this petty sarcasm. I'm not going to refute your comments--they're bait, not proposals.
May '11
Re: The Nasty Face of Conservatism
Wilber Forge, you are trying to prove that a person is not alive because the government has not decreed that it is so. If you accept a government-issued start date to life, then what do you feel about the other end?