The Narrative
Ricochet member Confucius, the Œcumenical Volgi, just sent me this video clip from 60 Minutes. It's extremely important--I hope you'll all watch it.
A former member of a Muslim extremist group tells Lesley Stahl the reason for the increase in home-grown jihadists like the U.S. Army major accused of shooting 13 at Ft. Hood is an ideology called "the Narrative," which states America is at war with Islam.
This is very compelling to me. I live in an Islamic country, and he's right: It is a common belief here, and certainly a radicalizing one, that the West is determined to destroy Islam itself. All the Islamists I've spoken to in Britain and France share this belief. I don't agree that it's the only reason for their radicalization, but it's certainly a significant part of it.
We can't do much about it if people are determined to believe lies, other than countering them with the truth. But I get the sense sometimes, from comments posted here, that some of us believe that the narrative should be true. And that view, I would submit, is really not helpful.
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Jun '10
Re: The Narrative
" We can't do much about it if people are determined to believe lies"
So true, Claire. Everywhere in the West, Muslims are allowed to practice their religion. Not so much in Muslim countries, when another religion is involved. Could it be possible that Islam is such an aggressive and domineering religion that controls not just ones personal life but ones political state as well, that it is not compatible with anything else?
Jun '10
Re: The Narrative
Claire: You've certainly hit on a difficult issue. I haven't the slightest desire to destroy Islam. It's here to stay, and I'm sure millions of Muslims obtain real solace and sustenance from the practice of their religion.
The problem, of course, is that a significant minority of Muslims buy into the jihadi, world caliphate, Wahibbist view, and thus seek to destroy or dominate the West and then impose sharia. To protect ourselves, we must fight the Islamists who actively seek, through violence, to impose their worldview upon us.
So, just as some Muslims fear the West wants to destroy them, I fear the segment of Islam that wishes to destroy everything I believe in. The difference is that I do not the vast majority of westerners have any desire to destroy Islam (we certainly haven't done so in Iraq).
Islam has been subjected to colonialism, but they shouldn't forget the Ottoman empire--and just who was it that was defeated a couple of times at the gates of Vienna?
How to get them to believe we don't want to destroy them? I think the proof is in our actions.
May '10
Re: The Narrative
I have not had a chance to check out the link yet. However, if "The Narrative" is a significant problem, do laws banning the burqa do anything to dispel the notion that western nations are at war with Islam?
Jul '10
Re: The Narrative
He calls it "narrative," Palestinians call it "nakba," someone else is always responsible for their problems. That there is a strong strain of infidel hatred in the Koran is, of course, never mentioned. I would bet that every Ricochet reader would like nothing better than to be left alone, to enjoy the fruits of our civilation like Bach, Mozart, Shakespeare, Austin et al, without worrying about annihilation by the religion of peace.
May '10
Re: The Narrative
When Christian churches are burned, we don't call on atheists to stop saying Christianity or organized religion in general is a source of tyranny. We challenge them with arguments. We would be right to condemn someone for attacking believers instead of the beliefs they act on, or for encouraging others to do so. But we should support open discussion of beliefs (which have consequences), though I agree with Duane that tone matters.
Some argue that Mohammed, Islam's greatest role model by any interpretation, stopped treating infidels with even basic concern once he gained power. This is a point worth debating. They further argue that Islam's earliest leaders, those who most surely understood Islam, were motivated to military domination by their faith. This is a point worth debating. Is it any different from the military conquest of King David ("a man after [God's] own heart" in Jewish and Christian belief)? It's worth debating.
Any Christian who believes that Christ is "the end of revelation" should logically be driven to understand how a religion as widely accepted as Islam could emerge after Christ by God's will. It certainly confounds belief in progressive revelation.
May '10
Re: The Narrative
Islam happens to be very tied up with the culture in a non-Western way. That is, there is no secular world, it is all Islam. There is no way that culture can exist inside a secular one and not have friction.
Take Islam out of the equation. The West demanded an end to the caste system. In America, you can be a practicing Hindu. But the caste system, of which so much of that faith was based is not allowed. That is an attack of secular Western values on Hinduism.
We make the same demands on things like burkas or FGM or honor killings (most of us do anyway). That is an attack on their way of life in Islam as they see it. I am not sure they are wrong. Our very statement of values is an attack, or at least I can understand how it would be seen that way.
May '10
Re: The Narrative
cdor:
Everywhere in the West, Muslims are allowed to practice their religion. Not so much in Muslim countries, when another religion is involved. · Jul 29 at 12:11pm
This is the point that Steyn makes over and over again. Nearly every nation where Islam is practiced by the majority of citizens, freedom -- religious freedom in particular -- is lacking. After that big tsunami hit Southeast Asia years ago, Muslim governments wouldn't even offer life-sustaining aid to their own non-Muslim citizens. Dhimmitude does not appear to be an exceptional occurrence in Muslim nations.
There is obviously a link between Islam and these patterns. The question that must be raised in public debate, including among our politicians: Is that link causal or coincidental?
Seriously, we need to raise this issue again when Steyn returns. He's the one who has devoted years of his life to researching the issue.
Jun '10
Re: The Narrative
The relevant question is: how many Islamists want this to be the case? Maybe not the destruction of Islam, but at least the courtesy of an honorable defeat.
As things stand now, if a Muslim goes before Allah and is asked "Why did you not resist?" What can he say? That the temptation of cheap booze and free porn was too great? If he has suffered total war, he can provide a different response.
Jun '10
Re: The Narrative
I was watching someone yesterday, on TV, and their point was that today's Islam is missing a self-critical high culture. They may've had it a few centuries ago, but not anymore. Self-critical forms of art and high culture--what the West is crawling with--is what keeps nations from being reflexively self-righteous, coercive, and expansionist. It creates some needed humility.
Jun '10
Re: The Narrative
It was KSM who stated, after breaking from his "enhanced interrogation", that "You must do this to all the brothers." An insight into understanding the other side.
Jun '10
Re: The Narrative
This sounds to me like a classic case of projection. The West doesn't want to destroy Islam, but Islam most definitely wants to destroy the West (as well as every other non-Islamic civilization). Muslims may also need a rationalization to justify the murder and maiming of innocent men, women and children.
Jun '10
Re: The Narrative
What are you getting at here Claire - that some of the posters want to eliminate Islam, or that some of the posters believe that the West wants to destroy Islam? Semantic uncertainty.
May '10
Re: The Narrative
The West has every right to defend itself against Islamists. If other "moderate" Muslims are unable to recognize this, is it because they are unable to or not willing to distinguish between themselves and the Islamists?
May '10
Re: The Narrative
I revised my post above one too many times and it lost its intended meaning. Here's a better version:
The West has every right to defend itself against Islamists. In doing so, it gives moderate Muslims the impression that the West is fighting a war to destroy Islam rather than Islamism.
Is this because the West is hitting all the wrong targets, or because "moderate" Muslims are unable to or not willing to distinguish between themselves and the Islamists?
Jul '10
Re: The Narrative
Claire Berlinski:
But I get the sense sometimes, from comments posted here, that some of us believe that the narrative should be true. And that view, I would submit, is really not helpful. ·
I think you're (correctly) answering the wrong question Claire. Why is that narrative seemingly (I have yet to see an endorsement) promoted by reasonable people? Is it because they are poorly informed, or misled? Possibly. The irony is that Americans are not told to believe that Muslims are bad guys by our media or government. Instead, bigshots in the public sphere intentionally downplay the clash of civilizations. I watched capering in Middle Eastern streets on 9/11. Does that mean Islam has to go? No, but I'm not issuing any dinner invitations either.
I'll stipulate that Islam doesn't cause violence any more than guns do. Violent types can use any tool to hand. That said, when bigshot bureaucrat says: "Islam is the Religion of Peace" and hyperventilating angry man says: "Islam is a threat to you", which is plausibly honest? Not neccesarily right, just honest.
When people are given a choice between between a crock and a crackpot, it's not easy.
Jul '10
Re: The Narrative
Mark, it is clearly the latter. Well, not quite that. But there is a cultural diproportionality at work. Related to Mark Steyn's sense of cultural confidence. We are clearly defending ourselves against our nation against a cultural and miltary aggressor, yet we fell compelled to apologize for that and to second-guess ourselves.
But then we (Claire) seem to hold Muslims to a different standard, one we would never accept for oursleves. The fact that they seem to believe a preposterous idea is somehow seen as proof that we are doing something wrong.
I am very willing to believe that Islam's totalitarian (in the literal sense) nature creates cultural blinders that blind its adherents to all who do not buy into its premises. I do not feel compelled to apologize or self-analyze because of that.
Re: The Narrative
If there isn't much we can do for people who are bent on believing lies except to counter them with the truth, let's start with the following: Whether it is aid to Muslim peoples following earthquakes, tsunami disaster, famine, or any other natural calamity, the West has spared no expense. We've sacrificed our blood and treasure to free Muslims across the globe, liberated captive Muslim countries while defending others from aggression.
The response thus far has been the wholesale slaughter of Western peoples. Ethel C. Fening at American Thinker reported last December that in 2009, over 165,000 Christians would be killed due to their faith, mostly in Muslim countries.
The practice of Christian faith is illegal in Saudi Arabia and a great many other countries where Islam is the ruling religious, cultural, and political system. In the West, we bend over backward to accommodate the freedom of Muslims to practice their faith, with thousands of mosques dotting our landscape.
Re: The Narrative
In 2000, we didn't bat an eye when young Muslim men attended flight school. These men rewarded our tolerance and openness by flying passenger airlines in an act of mass murder on 9/11. And now, a leading Islamic figure with ties to radical elements seeks to build a mosque on the ashes of the dead.
So sensitive to Muslim sensitivities was the Army, that it didn't dare give the impression of discriminating against one of its own officers' devotion to Islam. Major Hasan's gratitude for our tolerance prompted him to gun down unarmed soldiers at Ft. Hood.
There are many Muslims who want nothing more than to live in peace. Unfortunately, a great many clerics and people in leadership positions within the faith seek the destruction of the West. Our failure to "connect the dots" only invites more attacks.
Re: The Narrative
The question is not whether the West is at war with Islam. We endanger our own troops in an effort to not endanger Muslim civilians. On the other hand, Muslim attackers go out of their way precisely to target civilians. So the real question is whether Islam is at war with the West. If the adherents of the Narrative can't understand it, that's too bad. Their lack of understanding cannot be allowed to cripple our own defense.
Jul '10
Re: The Narrative
Islam has been at war with the West since the 7th Century. True, Islam's Jihadists, like armies in all civilizations, are a minority of the population. But the broader population of the Islamic world, by embracing the chauvinist principles of the Koran, support the Jihadists, just as the German populace supported the Nazi's. The question is not whether the West intends to destroy Isla - the question is whether we can bring an end to Jihad without also bringing an end to the loathesome death cult which spawned it.