The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
In response to my post yesterday about the Muslim Brotherhood, a Twitter acquaintance joined Ricochet and posted an extremely civil rejoinder on his website.
AJK is arguing that there's nothing scary about the Muslim Brotherhood; that their early rhetoric is mitigated by its historical context; and that they're not that violent, or not violent at all.
Responding point-by-point would be getting ahead of myself here. But I promise to do so, AJK, when I wrap this up.
I was disappointed to learn that AJK has left Istanbul. He was one of the many people in Istanbul on Twitter of whom I'd thought, "Oh, he sounds interesting, I should meet him." I was too late: It seems he's gone back to the US.
AJK, I was prepared to suggest that we meet for a drink here and argue this point into the ground. One of the points I would have made is that as you must know full well, in the state the Muslim Brotherhood envisions--and which every evidence suggests they are serious about bringing into being--our meeting for a drink would be impossible. It would be impossible because I am an unmarried, uncovered woman, and you are not my father, brother or husband. The Muslim Brotherhood takes a dim view of two such people meeting for a drink unsupervised.
Alcohol, moreover, would be banned in the state they have in mind.
If the idea of a state in which such a meeting would be impossible doesn't scare you, it is perhaps because you have never had the pleasure of meeting me for a drink.
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Dec '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
... and thus ended the romantic episode that never was, every hope and possibility smashed to the ground in little bits and pieces ...
Sep '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
The inability to enjoy a single malt scotch is surely the mark of a retrograde ideology.
Jan '11
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
I'm actually still around Istanbul, will be for a bit, depending on visa issues (now THERE is a topic that'll get me grumpy). So all else aside, we should definitely meet, you have my e-mail.
And I'll be in Egypt this spring to visit a friend who is moving there. Will have news to report in, oh, a few months or so.
That said, drinks are drinks, and I am very sure I will have some in Egypt. At the same time, I never drink with my Gülen friends here because that would be an insult to them. And I never understood why people get upset over the lack of alcohol, but the lack of pork is more of just a disappointment? And why there's consternation over the veil, but never the beard?
I'll never forget the first time I returned from Istanbul, went to a frat party, and was shocked at the way my female friends dressed. And if you walk through Üsküdar and see how girls use the veil as a fashion accessory - or see them making out with their boyfriends in Gülhane, you'd agree its complicated?
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Surely this comment is disingenuous. Surely you appreciate the universe of difference between a secular state that at least in principle guarantees equal rights to women and an Islamic state in which women's rights are sharply circumscribed.
May '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
It's a trap, AJ! Flee Constantinople before it's too late!
With that warning out of the way, alcohol is one of the basic building blocks of civilization. It's been smoothing social interaction for thousands of years, thus enabling us to live in cities without killing each other as often as we'd like. I feel its absence all too keenly these days. There's no point in being good at cocktail parties without having a cocktail.
While bacon is indeed Nature's perfect food, the other pork cuts are no better than any other meat. But pigs and chickens are such efficient little food producers compared to cows, historically. Shellfish are more of a delicacy than efficient.
Dec '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
"AJK is arguing that there's nothing scary about the Muslim Brotherhood; that their early rhetoric is mitigated by its historical context; and that they're not that violent, or not violent at all."
Every time I read up on Islamist terrorist organizations or organizations affiliated with them and I read about the founders, leaders, and major figures involved, almost invariably I read that many of them got their start as members of the Muslim Brotherhood, and they continue to claim membership in that organization. It is a fairly constant thread that runs though Islamist organizations.
I know this does not automatically indicate causality or that the MB is responsible for the actions of these terrorist groups, but it certainly indicates there is a large intersection in membership, and it is very suspicious. And the more one digs the more suspicious one gets.
May '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
AJK -- As far as I am concerned Claire is the alpha and omega on the Burqua debate. If you want to engage with her on this topic you owe it to yourself to read her seminal work on the subject. I changed my own position on the subject after reading this and have shared with many liberal friends (aka Muslim apologists) and changed their minds as well.
Nov '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Claire Berlinski, Ed.:-our meeting for a drink would be impossible. It would be impossible because I am an unmarried, uncovered woman, and you are not my father, brother or husband. The Muslim Brotherhood takes a dim view of two such people meeting for a drink unsupervised.
Alcohol, moreover, would be banned in the state they have in mind.
If the idea of a state in which such a meeting would be impossible doesn't scare you, it is perhaps because you have never had the pleasure of meeting me for a drink. ·
Living in a land where there is no Scotch, gin, or Bar-B-Que (pork, of course, chopped and mixed) sounds to me like the definition of a hardship tour. All of that plus being unable openly to meet Milady Claire and enjoy her company in a public place sounds like hell.
I think that womenfolk are the great Achilles heel of the Mohammedans. If ever they get hold of power equal to their numbers, I cannot imagine that the worst features of their system will survive unchanged, and for the better.
Sep '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
I have a hunch that AJK is a fan of Tariq Ramadan, whom I find to be very equivocal on the issue of the status of women in the Muslim world. Sure, there are rabbis and clerics who act similarly, but in the West it's merely chauvinistic; in the Muslim world it's authoritarian chauvinism.
Jan '11
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
All of that plus being unable openly to meet Milady Claire...
I think that womenfolk are the great Achilles heel of the Mohammedans....
In terms of the hijab, well, there's little differentiating it from the demands of modesty and symbolic adherence then any religion. I think all religions ask modesty of their adherents, just Muslims tend to enforce it a bit more. The burqa is a bit more complex. I really don't know enough about Islam and Sexuality to talk further. But you quickly run into life being unjust to women the world over, I think.
But how many American women are internationally famous? We know our own, but do you think even Canadians know Betsy Ross or Molly Pitcher? Most foreigners would say - gasp - Hillary Clinton. It's like that with us and Muslim women. It's easy to put Benazir on a pedestal, but Americans won't know a Ciller or a Hasina.
Just so we're clear, Ms. Berlinski's "we can't meet for a drink" is entirely theoretical outside of Saudi Arabia (which has an ambivalent relationship to the MB, FWIW). And yeah, eating in Istanbul ain't that bad.
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
This is unacceptably glib, AJK. There is a world of difference in the degree of injustice confronted by women who live in California and those who live in what the Muslim Brotherhood considers a desirable social and legal climate.
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Equivocal? He cannot even bring himself to condemn the stoning of women.
Sep '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Sep '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Equivocal? He cannot even bring himself to condemn the stoning of women. · Jan 6 at 10:22a
This is what I get for using a weaselly modifier! You're totally right, of course, and I'm ever so glad that you replied to this post..
Edited on Jan 6, 2011 at 10:52amJul '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
This is unacceptably glib, AJK. There is a world of difference in the degree of injustice confronted by women who live in California and those who live in what the Muslim Brotherhood considers a desirable social and legal climate. · Jan 6 at 10:10am
Glib is all he's got.
Nov '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Kenneth
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
This is unacceptably glib, AJK. There is a world of difference in the degree of injustice confronted by women who live in California and those who live in what the Muslim Brotherhood considers a desirable social and legal climate.
Glib is all he's got.
My attitude toward Islam has hardened, in no small part because of the way Muslims treat women. The sight of a woman in a burqa fills me with something akin to actual horror, and I think to myself, "There goes a slave, forbidden by Islamic law from ever feeling the sun on her face."
Muslim men are psychotic misogynists. They fear women and, because of that fear, they hate women. It is no secret that Muslim men prefer the company of boys for sex and romance. A woman is nothing but a brood sow, to be kept locked in a cage.
Women have always been treated unjustly, in all times and all places. But injustice is one thing and outrageous injustice is another. Islam takes the thing to a whole new level.
Dec '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Trace Urdan
As far as I am concerned Claire is the alpha and omega on the Burqua debate. If you want to engage with her on this topic you owe it to yourself to read her seminal work on the subject.
Claire's article says: [1] the "security" argument is insupportable and [2] the impact on "religious freedom" unfortunate, but that nevertheless covering should be banned or discouraged because it tends to make public spaces inhospitable to un-covered women and others. Two quibbles:
[1] Surely, face covering is *far* more objectionable than headscarfs or hijabs: faces are central to recognizing individuals, which is related to holding them responsible for their behavior, and also for judging intent, reading emotions, etc. Eye covering is worse still in these respects.
[2] If we believe that ideas matter, not just because they amuse us, but because they are related to behavior, we will have to face the increasingly obvious fact that some ideas are so bad that they are dangerous, that some religious ideas are prime among these, and that the the special pass given religious ideas by civil society ("religious freedom") needs to be reexamined.
Edited on Jan 6, 2011 at 5:12pmMay '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Lady Kurobara
Muslim men are psychotic misogynists. They fear women and, because of that fear, they hate women. It is no secret that Muslim men prefer the company of boys for sex and romance. A woman is nothing but a brood sow, to be kept locked in a cage.
This one is for the Ricochet Chronicles, Vol.1. I hope you and Steyn never have occasion to disagree about anything, because I think the resulting verbal exchange would melt the sun and trigger Armageddon. I would hate to have to defend the above citation in polite society, but I appreciate your voice on Ricochet. Maybe Rob or Pat know of a good talent agent that can get you a gig on The View. Now that would be a show worth watching!
Jul '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Trace Urdan
Lady Kurobara
Muslim men are psychotic misogynists. They fear women and, because of that fear, they hate women. It is no secret that Muslim men prefer the company of boys for sex and romance. A woman is nothing but a brood sow, to be kept locked in a cage.
This one is for the Ricochet Chronicles, Vol.1. I hope you and Steyn never have occasion to disagree about anything, because I think the resulting verbal exchange would melt the sun and trigger Armageddon. I would hate to have to defend the above citation in polite society, but I appreciate your voice on Ricochet. Maybe Rob or Pat know of a good talent agent that can get you a gig on The View. Now that would be a show worth watching! · Jan 6 at 2:20pm
Leave her alone, Trace, I need her. She makes me look like a voice of sweet moderation.
May '10
Re: The Muslim Brotherhood: A Quick Digression
Kenneth
Leave her alone, Trace, I need her. She makes me look like a voice of sweet moderation. · Jan 6 at 2:37pm
I was expressing only admiration with just a sprinkling of bemusement. Remember when you were outrageous and controversial Kenneth? That is so 2010.