The Level of Our Women
To a great extent the level of any civilization is the level of its womanhood. When a man loves a woman, he has to become worthy of her. The higher her virtue, the more noble her character, the more devoted she is to truth, justice, goodness, the more a man has to aspire to be worthy of her. The history of civilization could actually be written in terms of the level of its women.
I have come across this quote a few times this past week and finally found its origin in a transcript for one episode of Sheen's popular television program from the 50s, Life is Worth Living.
What do you think of the message? For history buffs, do you agree? Furthermore, as Americans, how could we begin to assess the "level of [our] women." What benchmarks might we consider? Is such an assessment even possible?
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Aug '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
Jim Woolsey once told me:
A society is as good as it treats it's women.
I probably remember that every day and it is the most useful metric I have encountered in a woefully relativistic world.
So if we consistently honor and respect from one generation to the next, then the level is always at the top, therefore I would hope such an assessment is impossible.
May '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
I'm with the Archbishop on this. One can measure the "level" of a civilization against a number of measures, all valid in their own way. Which you choose depends on what you value. I like Sheen's definition.
If you study genealogy much you quickly run into the disturbing mortality of young women in prior generations. Childbirth was genuinely dangerous before the invention of modern medicine, comparable to the mortality rates of soldiers in serious combat. I cannot imagine that this was not tangibly obvious to the people of that era. Young wives and mothers were lost every week, in as noble a cause as can be imagined. We all owe our existance to the courage of women down deep in our family tree.
To the men observing this there can be only two responses. Either one drops to his knees in awe and gratitude, or you become a callous tyrant and monster.
History tends to ignore these great sacrifices, and the many other contributions of women, not because they were not important, but because they were commonplace. It takes a subtle eye to see the power of women in historical societies, and perhaps in ours.
Aug '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
It's true. Men have been bred for war over the eons, and left alone, will tend to live like soldiers in a military camp. They're rarely aesthetically inclined, and are content with the rudiments of civilization.
This is why men aren't usually in touch with their feelings. Feelings are fatal in war. Courage manifests itself when men pretend not to be afraid. Acting the part of the ideal warrior is half the battle, and not acting the part well will get you and your cohorts killed.
Good women are largely responsible for having introduced the fruits of civilization: art, music, literature, and architecture. Or more precisely, the feminine urge is towards those things. Effeminate men have also done their share. Art is all about feelings, and tenderness.
Countless heroes have found their principal inspiration and motivation in the love of a woman; not necessarily a "good" woman, either. Men often see a woman as the purest expression of God on earth.
It's alarming that femininity appears to be dying. Women are becoming more crude and masculine; while men are trending toward femininity. This is perhaps a sign that we've reached a tipping point of barbarism.
Jun '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
What poppycock, this from a man whose organization kept women in their place cleaning altars, bed pans, and disciplining the kiddies. In days of yore “Get thee to a nunnery” was as much a social imperative as it was a religious one. It was what was done with women that had no other place in society. As for women’s “higher virtue”, I defy any reader of this thread to name a woman currently in power who has ever said a kind word about her sister in the fight, Sara Palin. If what happened to her reflects a higher virtue I’ll take a group of ill-bred louts any day, because louts I can trust. The level to which a society has evolved is dependent on how the weakest among us are treated, not just women. And let’s put a stop to this men and women of courage nonsense when the only courage either has shown is to obey nature’s dictates. That’s not courage, that’s inevitable. Want to make a bet that when women gain power they will be as, if not more, ruthless than men. Or have we forgotten Nancy and Hillary already?
Aug '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
All I can say is that for the past couple of months my man-cave is the cleanest it's been in years, I've been eating much healthier, and I've been getting way more exercise since I started dating someone I actually admire (as opposed to the women I've dated in the past because, hey, they were available and they gave me the time of day).
Jul '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
There are numerous quotes along the lines of "a society may be judged by how well it cares for its weakest members." Certainly, the treatment of women, as traditionally weaker members of society, has been a driver of civilization's progress. And certainly, any civilization's interest in continuing has to be tied to those who bear the greatest part of the effort in regenerating it.
And look at the obverse: immoral, scheming women are a cliche in the historical genre dealing with the late Roman Empire. The French Revolution has the opposing images of Marie Antoinette and Madame Defarge.
And note that the representation of the virtues in classical mythology and religion is generally in the form of women: wisdom personified as Athena, beauty as Aphrodite, the Statue of Liberty, the Virgin Mary.
I am sorry to say that, in America, some cracks have appeared in the pedestal. Certainly, the reversal of roles mentioned earlier. But also, rape used to be exclusively a crime of males against females; not as much, lately. And in other aspects of criminality, women seem to be coming into their own. Pretty disturbing.
Jun '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
It would do us all well to remember that the purest expression of God on earth is Christ on the cross.
Jul '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
Nobody said that maintaining civilization was a clean and pleasant job.
Edited on Nov 18, 2010 at 10:20amJun '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
Tripedis Canis
Nobody said that maintaining civilization was a clean and pleasant job. · Nov 18 at 10:20am
Edited on Nov 18 at 10:20 am
Did anyone say it was a job entirely given over to women?
May '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
George Gilder wrote a whole book on the topic some years back: 'Men & Marriage." I think the argument is not only solid but self-evident. For evidence one need only visit our home. The one room in the house where I hold even a modicum of sway -- my den -- is usually a mess. (A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind. ;-) The rest of the house, evidencing my wife's presence is clean, orderly, civilized and welcoming. There is no doubt in my mind that I am a better man, and live a more enjoyable and useful life, because of her presence in it. I thank God for the blessings she has brought into my life.
May '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
In my experience, husbands usually sacrifice and risk a great deal for the sake of their wives and families. The sacrifices aren't just financial, but also changes in character and basic behavior. It's understood when a man is married that he won't have as much time for friends or passtimes because he is now devoted to his wife and home.
Historically, men have been more active in politics and war. But there's a reason romantic love has always been, by far, the most common artistic theme throughout the world. It's not just something nearly every human being hopes for, but often what drives us. To think that women could be so important to men and yet commonly lack influence on men's actions requires a great stretch of imagination.
By the way, I was shocked when I learned that a priest/bishop could ever have had a TV show that drew such a big audience. I wonder if someone like Archbishop Sheen could have such mainstream success today.
Jun '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
Let's get something straight about cleanliness: It is something we do for others and not something we do for ourselves. Hence your sloppy desk, Tom. Me, I can't work in a disorderly environment, so my desk is usually clean. If we never went out in public, or interacted with others, there would be no cosmetics industry or no deodorants for sale. It is only coincidental that this neatness business is tied to women, whose self-worth is heavily influenced by what they perceive is their appearance or image in the eyes of others. And, yes, that means mostly in the eyes of men, even though women are women's severest critics when it comes to appearance. Another example of their "higher virtue".
Oct '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
"The history of civilization could actually be written in terms of the level of its women." If Sheen had said, "The history of many civilizations could actually be written in terms of the level of its women," I would agree completely.
His premise holds water only in cultures where men have observed codes of chivalry: whether that code was full-blown, medieval-type chivalry or the more subtle variety of recent generations, where men would always open a door for a woman as a ceremonial act of respect for a bearer of life.
In chivalrous cultures, the women affect the behavior of the men in significant, positive, constructive ways.
(Chivalrous cultures can become post-chivalrous cultures. Modern western culture is post-chivalrous, but I don't have enough words left to explore that here.)
However in cultures where women are held as chattel, the character of women is irrelevant because women are not allowed to have impact on men's behavior. Where women are persona non grata- as literally translated from Latin and in the idiomatic sense- men can act out as they please. And unfortunately, there are many such cultures to be found on this planet.
Jun '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
Keep women ignorant, covered from heat to toe, cower them with beatings, and allow cousin marriage, then put these same women in charge of education the kids. Sounds like a recipe for success to me.
Sep '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
In the Catholic Church, the greatest saint is a woman.
May '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
Personally, I am into women's liberation- the three key women in my life see to that. I think that Dr. Sheen speaks like a priest, not a typical man.
I don't think that women should be revered in any special way because they are women. I do think that they should be loved and respected as God's handiwork, just as men should- and viva la difference. My bride, Rubber Duckie, is on the pedestal because of who she is- the love of my life- not because she is a female, or a wife, etc.
And there is an equal set of rules for women- all of which are summarized in Ephesians 5 (21 to 30) and 1 Corinthians 7.
Hey, Aaron- "I wonder if someone like Archbishop Sheen could have such mainstream success today"- the position is open! Go for it!
Jul '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
When I was young, our family was very poor, and had to travel from job to job living in a trailer (yep, back then, trailers MOVED AROUND). Things were rough. My mother had a collection of Hummel figurines. I had saved my money and bought her one for $7 (the little chimney sweep). She loved them. They were the only breakable frivolities that survived from the bankruptcy, and they were carefully wrapped and put away whenever we moved.
And she stayed at home, sewed our clothes, cleaned the house, and made no attempt to find a job (she was a registered nurse) because she knew that her husband, my father, had to be the one to get us out of the mess he had made himself. It was a matter of his pride. Mom read books to us in the evening, like David Copperfield and Tale of 2 Cities.
That was the way things went in those bygone days. The family she raised is a close one and every one of us has been successful in the world.
May '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
I have often been concerned with the level of my women. Just last week I noticed my daughter leaning a bit to the left. A good shim under the foot straightened her right up.
Re: The Level of Our Women
Duane Oyen: Personally, I am into women's liberation- the three key women in my life see to that. I think that Dr. Sheen speaks like a priest, not a typical man.
I don't think that women should be revered in any special way because they are women. I do think that they should be loved and respected as God's handiwork, just as men should- and viva la difference. My bride, Rubber Duckie, is on the pedestal because of who she is- the love of my life- not because she is a female, or a wife, etc.
I tend to agree with you, Duane. However, I wonder if perhaps he meant that a society/civilization could be assessed as rising, falling, sustaining, etc. based on the worth given or respect paid to its women. That was my reading of it, but I'm not sure that was the intent. My husband inspires me on occasion and I do the same for him. I'm certainly not the lone honorable one, showing "how it's done" to my sadsack counterpart. Nonsense.That's one reading of this, though I'm not sure that's one that was meant, either.
Edited on Nov 18, 2010 at 2:31pmJul '10
Re: The Level of Our Women
to continue, my mother was NOT a "sadsack", nor was my father. They built a true partnership, and loved each other throughout their lives.
My mother focused on her childrens' education, and homeschooled a couple of us when we lived away from a city. She defended us when the education system hurt us. She worked hard at dressing us in a neat manner, so that teachers would not treat us with scorn (the year she couldn't afford to buy us new shoes was the year the great education establishment decided we were 'below average'. ) In the meantime, my father worked, when necessary, in minus 40 degrees; and the mark of a good job was one with plenty of overtime. He stayed up all night when it was so cold the fuel oil was in danger of freezing.
And they paid their debts.
Things are different today. Now, a wife is EXPECTED to work at a paying job or her 'husband' thinks she is 'not pulling her weight'. And when bankruptcy looms, it never occurs to anyone that they should spend the next number of years, paying off their debts.
Edited on Nov 18, 2010 at 1:57pm