The Intolerance of Tolerance
James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal has provided an excellent service. He simply points to two pieces of advice offered by the same Washington Post/Slate advice columnist, Emily Yoffe, as part of a discussion of why social conservatism has much more appeal than, well, the folks at the Washington Post and Slate and other elite institutions realize. Here's the first piece of advic from Emily Yoffe's "Dear Prudence" column:
Q: I attend a small university studying engineering. I hold traditional values and I would like to get married to a woman willing to stay home and raise our children. I am lucky enough to not have any student loans and will be able to support a wife and children on my salary. Preferably, I would like to marry a woman who has a college degree and is smart because we would match intellectually and she would provide the best environment for my children. Women I meet on campus frequently call me sexist. I never thought of myself as sexist because I have no problem whatsoever with women who work in general and I respect my fellow female students and professors. Just because I don't want my wife to work does not mean I think women in general shouldn't work. Am I sexist? Is there any way I can meet a woman who shares my values, or was I born 40 years too late?
A: You sound like the male equivalent of the bride in the letter above who much preferred planning her wedding without the bother of a real person to marry. Of course we all have ideas of what our ideal life would be, then life happens and we have to--even want to--adjust to reality. Yes, there are women, even well-educated ones, who would prefer to stay home with their children. But dictating these terms before you've even gotten far enough to go steady makes you sound rigid, dictatorial, and yes, sexist. Instead of announcing your life plan for the so-far nonexistent woman you plan to marry, you should just date interesting, intelligent women and find out what they want out of life. But if you're determined to only spend time with women who meet your qualifications, go to a rally for Rick Santorum. He shares your views of women's roles, and during his Q&A ask if he can fix you up.
Now, I come from a different culture, one where even women who work want husbands who will sacrifice as necessary to enable women to spend more time at home with their children. The man could use more flexibility, perhaps, but the snide and judgmental tone from Yoffe -- the intolerance, as it were -- is really striking.
I'll let Taranto summarize the other piece of advice, lest I run afoul of the Code of Conduct:
In an earlier column, she responded in blasé fashion to a (fictional, we hope to God) letter from a man who claimed to be carrying on a homosexual affair with his own fraternal twin brother: "When people ask when you're each going to go out there and find a nice young man, tell them that while it may seem unorthodox, you both have realized that living together is what works for you," she advised.
But when a decent young man professes a desire to marry an old-fashioned girl and take financial responsibility for his family, Yoffe treats him as a deviant. She denounces him as "sexist" even though he is careful to affirm that women have every right to work outside the home if they choose to do so. He mentions nothing about politics, yet she feels compelled to bring Santorum, the feminists' Emmanuel Goldstein, into the mix.
Yoffe's hostility to this young man tells us more about elite culture than it does about her personally.
I can think of no better example of the "new tolerance," as D.A. Carson puts it in his new book The Intolerance of Tolerance. It's not tolerant so much as embracing of any social system that has no standards, quite intolerant of those that do, and firmly positioned to provide a morally relativistic philosophy in defense of this intolerant tolerance.
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Comments:
Sep '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Excellent point; there are probably women on his campus who would like to be stay home mothers, but shy away from him because they are afraid of what others might think. Online dating would be a good option for our engineering student; it is easier for people to be honest with others and with themselves when they aren't part of a larger community, and when they know that they won't have to see each other again if they aren't compatible.
Apr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
I bet by now Young Engineer is kicking himself that he wrote to Slate for advice instead of Ricochet.
Next time...
Apr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Joseph Stanko I think your feeling that it is "creepy and gross" represents a valid intuition that this type of relationship is deeply unhealthy. Love for a sibling and romantic, erotic love are different types of love and ought not to mix. So chiefly they are harming themselves and each other, and to a lesser extent their families and friends.
Now you could say it's no one else's business but theirs, and I might agree except that they wrote to an advice columnist. And I think an advice columnist has a duty to say: your relationship is unhealthy, and you really should seek some form of therapy or counseling.
Hi Joseph--thanks for the thoughtful response. I'll certainly grant that it is likely to cause harm and/or distress to family and friends (although I'd point out that the advice sought was how to tell others about the relationship, not how to deal with it themselves). But I'm still not sure I can identify any specific harm to the two men, unless you are arguing that they are likely to experience long-term psychological damage.
Feb '12
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Leporello
Yes. Some are worried about what the man will say without showing parallel concern for what the woman might say.
Because it wasa manwho wrote the advice columnist. Duh!
If a woman had written and I had guessed her problem was lack of tact, I would have suggested the same thing for her. God knows Ineeded a lesson in tact when I was college-age. (Tact certainly wasn't a skill I learned from either parent.) · 4 hours ago
I agree with your points in general, but I don't see their relevance here. Everyone, single and married, younger and older, needs help with being more tactful. But this is not specifically related to the question at hand. One could also advise the fellow on dressing properly, or choosing suitable venues, or not rushing things, or being courteous, or avoiding political talk on the first few dates. All well and good - but not particularly pertinent.
Feb '12
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Or, returning to an earlier comment, he could just go to the next event sponsored by his local chapter of NeW (Network of Enlightened Women): http://enlightenedwomen.org/. There are young women who are not so concerned about the prevailing views on campus.
Apr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
The language of demands got in the thread because katievs picked up on "Prudence"'s characterization of the young man as the male equivalent of the bride... who much preferred planning her wedding without the bother of a real person to marry.
Hence katievs's concern that the guy thinks "of his wife in terms of the role she will play in his life".
Prudence jumps all over him for dictating these terms ... [which] makes you sound rigid, dictatorial, and sexist, because, like the feminist harridans on campus and elsewhere, she thinks looking for someone who agrees with his politically incorrect idea of a good life is dictating, stipulating, and demanding. In fact, he's asking "Is such a quest hopeless? Is such a partnership impossible nowadays?"
katievs, responding to Prudence, not him, offers "Individuals transcend roles. Life throws curves. Expect the unexpected.(#14)" and "Openness to the mystery of love . . . other persons, . . . the surprising things God might being doing in our lives.(#203)", which sounds like the Harlequin Romance version of Theology of the Body.
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Leporello
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Leporello
Yes. Some are worried about what the man will say without showing parallel concern for what the woman might say.
Because it was a man who wrote the advice columnist.
I agree with your points in general, but I don't see their relevance here.
And, with respect, I don't see how you find the question of how tactful the young man is irrelevant.
Yes, but college students -- and young men in particular -- often aren't aware of this homely fact. Youngsters these days are taught the supremacy of "honesty", which all too frequently means saying whatever occurs to you without regard for others' sensibilities.
These could be pertinent, too.
By his report, women aren't complaining that he looks like a slob or smells bad. They are complaining that he's expressing his desires and opinions in a manner they find disagreeable. They may be fools, but a large part of being a more pleasant person is accommodating others' foolishness gracefully.
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Leporello
Or, returning to an earlier comment, he could just go to the next event sponsored by his local chapter of NeW (Network of Enlightened Women): http://enlightenedwomen.org/. There are young women who are not so concerned about the prevailing views on campus.
Yes. This advice is very good.
But I'd like to point out that your advice is also about tact:
Not everyone will appreciate who we are and what we think. So it's only tactful to seek out those who will, rather than inflicting ourselves on those who don't.
Edited on March 2, 2012 at 11:01amAug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
They may be fools, but a large part of being a more pleasant person is accommodating others' foolishness gracefully.
Now, a man's reaction to my statement, "They may be fools," might well be, "Well, why should this young man waste his time on fools?"
But everyone marries a fool. Because we're all fools, in one way or another.
Edited on March 2, 2012 at 11:03amAug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Grendel
katievs, responding to Prudence, not him, offers "Individuals transcend roles. Life throws curves. Expect the unexpected.(#14)" and "Openness to the mystery of love . . . other persons, . . . the surprising things God might being doing in our lives.(#203)", which sounds like the Harlequin Romance version of Theology of the Body.
Oddly enough, what Katievs said reminds me of... Epictetus:
Consider when, on a voyage, your ship is anchored; if you go on shore to get water you may along the way amuse yourself with picking up a shellish, or an onion... If, instead of an onion or a shellfish, you are given a wife or child, that is fine.
Now, this is embedded in a longer quotation about always being ready for death. But clearly, it's also about being open to the peculiar gifts God chooses to give us, even though they're not we expected (a wife instead of an onion). Which is what I thought Katievs was getting at.
Seeking another person means finding someone in particular, even if what you're looking for in another person is general. In that sense, the particular matters more than the general. That is all.
Apr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Charlotte: I bet by now Young Engineer is kicking himself that he wrote toSlate for advice instead of Ricochet.
Next time... · 11 hours ago
I certainly wish he had!
Apr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
They arecomplaining that he's expressing his desires and opinions in a manner they find disagreeable.
Maybe, although he didn't really say this. His question was "Am I sexist?", as in, am I out of line to even seek this understanding with the woman who will be my wife. No matter how he asks the question, or at what point it comes up in a relationship, some women will be offended by the request. He's worried about ever finding a woman who shares the values he believes are important.
The intolerance inherent in Prudence's response is that she clearly thinks that he has committed a thought-crime and I suspect so do many of the women he has encountered. There is no way he can present the question tactfully enough (in tone or timing) to satisfy someone who is offended by the very substance of the question. And if he gives up asking the question at all, he's given up pursuing a value that he deems important enough to use when looking for the person he will spend the rest of his life with. I don't think that's wise.
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Lee
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
They are complaining that he's expressing his desires and opinions in a manner they find disagreeable.
Maybe, although he didn't really say this. His question was "Am I sexist?"
I was referring to
He reports that women he meets frequently call him sexist even though he isn't.
I agree. She's wrong.
Lee
...and I suspect so do many of the women he has encountered.
OK. But unless these women are also the women he tries to ask out, why is it bothering him so much? (Do you suppose he's genuinely worried that he might be sexist? He shouldn't be.)
Lee
There is no way he can present the question tactfully enough (in tone or timing) to satisfy someone who is offended by the very substance of the question.
Completely agree.
But I do think it's likely he could improve his odds with more tact -- and tact in my book includes seeking out those who are most likely to appreciate you (#249).
Apr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Grendel
katievs, responding to Prudence, not him, offers "Individuals transcend roles. Life throws curves. Expect the unexpected." and "Openness to the mystery of love . . . other persons, . . . the surprising things God might being doing in our lives.", which sounds like the Harlequin Romance version of Theology of the Body.
Oddly enough, what Katievs said reminds me of... Epictetus:
If, instead of an onion or a shellfish, you are given a wife or child, that is fine.
Now, this is ... about always being ready for death. But clearly, it's also about being open to the peculiar gifts God chooses to give us, even though they're not [what] we expected (a wife instead of an onion). Which is what I thought Katievs was getting at.
Did Epictetus also say If life gives you a lemon, make lemonade? But I'm not protesting kativs's lectures. (I've lived the HR edition of TotB.) I'm protesting her strictures on the young man (who doesn't deserve them) because of how he was misrepresented by Prudence, who needn't be answered. As MH intimated, it kind of highjacked the discussion.
Edited on March 2, 2012 at 4:06pmApr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
I was referring to
He reports that women he meets frequently call him sexist even though he isn't.
... But unless these women are also the women he tries to ask out, why is it bothering him so much? (Do you suppose he's genuinely worried that he might be sexist? He shouldn't be.)
I understood "women I meet on campus" to mean "women I date". It must be awful for him to have random rabid feminists accost him when he's walking to class ;-)
Though it's entirely possible that's the case.
As for seeking out those who are likely to appreciate you---definitely a good idea, which is where online dating or Leporello's suggestion of NeW are helpful. However, there's no guarantee he will meet women in either of those ways who will share the value he places on mothers staying home to raise their children.
In that case, what is your suggestion for him?
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Lee
As for seeking out those who are likely to appreciate you---definitely a good idea, which is where online dating or Leporello's suggestion of NeW are helpful. However, there's no guarantee he will meet women in either of those ways who will share the value he places on mothers staying home to raise their children.
In that case, what is your suggestion for him?
Nothing guarantees we'll meet someone who shares the special value we place on something. But I don't think he should give up looking. He should realize that it could take him a longer time to find what he's looking for, but he's a man: he has the time.
Until he finds women to date who share his desire to have the mother in the home, he could casually and chastely dating a variety of gals who share his interests and values in other ways. By doing this, he'll discover other things he might want in a wife.
He might also discover that the woman he wants to marry doesn't have to be a stay-at-home mom. He doesn't have to discover this. But he might.
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Grendel
Did Epictetus also sayIf life gives you a lemon, make lemonade?
Not in so many words, but basically, yes:
With every accident, ask yourself what abilities you have for making a proper use of it.
And other stuff like that. Just because something sounds trite doesn't make it untrue.
Apr '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
@ 247 Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Very nice and I completely agree.