The Intolerance of Tolerance
James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal has provided an excellent service. He simply points to two pieces of advice offered by the same Washington Post/Slate advice columnist, Emily Yoffe, as part of a discussion of why social conservatism has much more appeal than, well, the folks at the Washington Post and Slate and other elite institutions realize. Here's the first piece of advic from Emily Yoffe's "Dear Prudence" column:
Q: I attend a small university studying engineering. I hold traditional values and I would like to get married to a woman willing to stay home and raise our children. I am lucky enough to not have any student loans and will be able to support a wife and children on my salary. Preferably, I would like to marry a woman who has a college degree and is smart because we would match intellectually and she would provide the best environment for my children. Women I meet on campus frequently call me sexist. I never thought of myself as sexist because I have no problem whatsoever with women who work in general and I respect my fellow female students and professors. Just because I don't want my wife to work does not mean I think women in general shouldn't work. Am I sexist? Is there any way I can meet a woman who shares my values, or was I born 40 years too late?
A: You sound like the male equivalent of the bride in the letter above who much preferred planning her wedding without the bother of a real person to marry. Of course we all have ideas of what our ideal life would be, then life happens and we have to--even want to--adjust to reality. Yes, there are women, even well-educated ones, who would prefer to stay home with their children. But dictating these terms before you've even gotten far enough to go steady makes you sound rigid, dictatorial, and yes, sexist. Instead of announcing your life plan for the so-far nonexistent woman you plan to marry, you should just date interesting, intelligent women and find out what they want out of life. But if you're determined to only spend time with women who meet your qualifications, go to a rally for Rick Santorum. He shares your views of women's roles, and during his Q&A ask if he can fix you up.
Now, I come from a different culture, one where even women who work want husbands who will sacrifice as necessary to enable women to spend more time at home with their children. The man could use more flexibility, perhaps, but the snide and judgmental tone from Yoffe -- the intolerance, as it were -- is really striking.
I'll let Taranto summarize the other piece of advice, lest I run afoul of the Code of Conduct:
In an earlier column, she responded in blasé fashion to a (fictional, we hope to God) letter from a man who claimed to be carrying on a homosexual affair with his own fraternal twin brother: "When people ask when you're each going to go out there and find a nice young man, tell them that while it may seem unorthodox, you both have realized that living together is what works for you," she advised.
But when a decent young man professes a desire to marry an old-fashioned girl and take financial responsibility for his family, Yoffe treats him as a deviant. She denounces him as "sexist" even though he is careful to affirm that women have every right to work outside the home if they choose to do so. He mentions nothing about politics, yet she feels compelled to bring Santorum, the feminists' Emmanuel Goldstein, into the mix.
Yoffe's hostility to this young man tells us more about elite culture than it does about her personally.
I can think of no better example of the "new tolerance," as D.A. Carson puts it in his new book The Intolerance of Tolerance. It's not tolerant so much as embracing of any social system that has no standards, quite intolerant of those that do, and firmly positioned to provide a morally relativistic philosophy in defense of this intolerant tolerance.
- Comment (258)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (7)
Comments:
Jun '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Lucy Pevensie
There's a paradox here, isn't there? Because probably the most important person to screen out is the potentially selfish future spouse. · 6 minutes ago
I'll see your paradox and raise you: shouldn't a truly self-less person be willing to marry a selfish person and try to teach him or her to be less selfish by the daily example of selflessness?
Are selfish people undeserving of love?
Nov '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Leporello
Lucy Pevensie
Leporello
katievs
No. Judithann's points were made as dispassionately and as logically as one could imagine, and Katie's response was undeserved, dismissive, and insulting. And since you have taken the typical feminist line - "the traditional family is like a 50's sitcom, but sending your kids away to be tended by others is grand!" - I'm not sure you're an unbiased judge. Let's let Katie speak for herself now, if she wishes.
I didn't say sending your kids away to be tended by others was always grand. I said that there are many ways to raise children, none are perfect but there may be good results from more than one, and it is wrong to judge other people's choices. I also agreed that going into marriage with a view to having one's own needs and desires met is potentially disastrous. And I still have not seen any logical argument to the contrary.
Feb '12
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
katievs
I'm saying it shouldn't be a pre-condition. It's a wrong-headed pre-condition.
I didn't describe mothers as functionaries! Ack! I described a bad approach to marriage--one where instead of looking for spouse and companion, a man or a woman is looking for someone to fill a role in his or her life. Jeepers. · 10 minutes ago
We agree, then, that it's a pre-condition.
I'm glad to learn that you are not opposed to mothers staying home.
Finally, if you didn't want to refer to a mother as a functionary, you should have used different words than these: "Individuals transcend roles. We're looking for a person, a companion, a spouse, not a functionary." Looking for a good mother is not looking for someone to fulfill a "role," i.e., a duty that is somehow alien to that person's being.
If your point was supposed to be that ordering a woman around is not respectful, well, sure, of course not. But no one is advocating such behavior.
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
katievs
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Trying to be nobler than you are -- marrying into poverty when you prefer luxury, marrying a plain person when looks really matter to you -- is probably a major cause of marriage failure. We have to be realistic about our weaknesses. ·
Of course we do.
I am flabbergasted by the way I am being interpreted today.
Oddly enough, I don't think we disagree.
It's just that, for some people, thinking of dating as a market is really helpful in preventing them from putting themselves into relationships that demands things of them that they're unlikely to be able to give.
At least, that's how it worked for me. Once I started to be more "market oriented" about dating, I opened myself up to more successful relationships, including my marriage.
Edited on February 29, 2012 at 11:20pmDec '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Lucy Pevensie
There's a paradox here, isn't there? Because probably the most important person to screen out is the potentially selfish future spouse. · 10 minutes ago
I don't think there is a paradox. Someone who is completely selfless to everyone is just as problematic a potential spouse as someone who is selfish to everyone. Someone who gives their all to you on the first date is just as large a warning sign as someone who won't give you the time of day right before the wedding.
The longer and deeper the relationship, more selflessness you should expect from the other person, with the final down-payment of total selflessness occurring after the wedding.
Feb '12
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Lucy Pevensie
Leporello
Lucy Pevensie
Leporello
katievs
And since you have taken the typical feminist line - "the traditional family is like a 50's sitcom, but sending your kids away to be tended by others is grand!" - I'm not sure you're an unbiased judge.
...I said that there are many ways to raise children, none are perfect but there may be good results from more than one, and it is wrong to judge other people's choices...
Here is what you wrote in comment 59:
May '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Two things feminism got right (see JP II's Letter to Women)
1) Women shouldn't be subordinate to men
2) Women shouldn't be subordinate to a social role
What they got wrong:
1) There are no important differences between men and women
2) Having a career is more fulfilling that being a wife and mother
3) Sexual license means personal empowerment
Lest there be any remaining doubt:
I believe that motherhood is infinitely more valuable than anything else a woman can do in the world.
I love men who love and admire their stay at home wives and sacrifice and work hard to make that possible.
I hate and deplore the consequences of feminism that make it so much harder for women who would love to be stay at home moms to be stay at home moms.
I think it's right for a young man to look for a young woman who values children above her personal fulfillment in a career, since children are objectively more valuable.
I think it's wrong for a young man to lay down as a condition for marriage that his wife be a stay at home mom.
Jun '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Lucy Pevensie
I said that there are many ways to raise children, none are perfect but there may be good results from more than one, and it is wrong to judge other people's choices. I also agreed that going into marriage with a view to having one's own needs and desires met is potentially disastrous.
But when he writes about "the best environment for my children" it seems a bit unfair to call that selfish or say it's primarily about his "own needs and desires." Is trying to provide the best environment for one's children selfish?
Also he says explictly he has "no problem whatsoever with women who work in general," so he's not judging other people's choices, merely making a choice about what he thinks is best for his own (future) children.
May '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Mark Wilson:
What's the big deal?
But I expect you're smooth enough not to cross-examine women about their drug habits, temper, and opinion of your job in the first few dates.
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Also, he isan engineering student. They're not known for their tact. · 14 minutes ago
Midge, you know what I do for a living, right? =P
May '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Oddly enough, I don't think we disagree.
It's just that, for some people, thinking of dating as a market is really helpful in preventing them from putting themselves into relationships that demands things of them that they're unlikely to be able to give.
At least, that's how it worked for me. Once I started to be more "market oriented" about dating, I opened myself up to more successful relationships, including my marriage.
I'm glad it worked that way for you, Midge. In my experience, though the market language and analogy has been a very bad one. (Have you read Lori Gottleib's Marry Him, by chance?) It puts us in a utilitarian, consumerist mode.
Here's how I express it when I speak on courtship (courtship is my main topic): Courtship is not a process we manage; it's a mystery we enter.
Nov '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Leporello
Lucy Pevensie
...I said that there are many ways to raise children, none are perfect but there may be good results from more than one, and it is wrong to judge other people's choices...
Here is what you wrote in comment 59:
Yes. I stand by that. I pointed out one highly successful culture with an entirely different child-rearing model. In fact, in my extended family, a happy nuclear family with a stay at home mother has been a rare exception.
My mother was flatly incapable of handling my brother and we would both have been far better off in a different setting. My father was raised by a widowed mother and sent off to school when he was 13. His mother was raised by an elderly great aunt after her mother died. His aunt was widowed, remarried, and divorced, and frequently had to work to keep food on the table. Of those families, the truly unsuccessful one was my family of origin with a SAHM.
Edited on February 29, 2012 at 11:33pmMay '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Leporello
Looking for a good mother is not looking for someone to fulfill a "role," i.e., a duty that is somehow alien to that person's being.
Note that the young man in question didn't say he was looking for a good mother. He said he was looking for a stay at home mom.
My objection is to the conflation of the two.
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Mark Wilson
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Mark Wilson:
What's the big deal?
But I expect you're smooth enough not to cross-examine women about their drug habits, temper, and opinion of your job in the first few dates.
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Also, he isan engineering student. They're not known for their tact. · 14 minutes ago
Midge, you know what I do for a living, right? =P · 5 minutes ago
Yes, but you are so obviously one of the smooth 'uns ;-)
Nov '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Leporello
katievs
I'm saying it shouldn't be a pre-condition. It's a wrong-headed pre-condition.
I didn't describe mothers as functionaries! Ack! I described a bad approach to marriage--one where instead of looking for spouse and companion, a man or a woman is looking for someone to fill a role in his or her life. Jeepers. · 10 minutes ago
We agree, then, that it's a pre-condition.
I'm glad to learn that you are not opposed to mothers staying home.
But are you opposed to women working outside the home? I rather gather that you are saying that.
May '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
katievs
Note that the young man in question didn't say he was looking for a good mother. He said he was looking for a stay at home mom.
My objection is to the conflation of the two. · 0 minutes ago
He wrote: "I would like to get married to a woman willing to stay home and raise our children...she would provide the best environment for my children."
He didn't write it explicitly, but you didn't infer that he wants his wife to be a good mother? What do you think is the true reason for his fondness of stay at home mothers?
Jul '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
katievs:
I think it's wrong for a young man to lay down as a condition for marriage that his wife be a stay at home mom. · 9 minutes ago
Wrong as in foolish, or wrong as in immoral?
-E
Feb '12
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Lucy Pevensie
Leporello
Lucy Pevensie
there may be good results from more than one, and it is wrong to judge other people's choices...
My mother was flatly incapable of handling my brother and we would both have been far better off in a different setting. My father was raised by a widowed mother and sent off to school when he was 13. His mother was raised by an elderly great aunt after her mother died. His aunt was widowed, remarried, and divorced, and frequently had to work to keep food on the table. Of those families, the truly unsuccessful one was my family of origin with a SAHM.
Would it now be appropriate to say, "It sounds to me like your bitterness over your own experience has made you markedly unsympathetic to the experience of others"?
Again, one's personal experience is not the point. Statistically, children of mothers who stay home do better than children of those who do not - in every category!
Next I suppose you'll argue that it's wrong to oppose same-sex marriage because some children raised by same-sex couples do fine, while some children raised by men and women don't.
Jul '11
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
Mark Wilson
katievs
Note that the young man in question didn't say he was looking for a good mother. He said he was looking for a stay at home mom.
My objection is to the conflation of the two. · 0 minutes ago
He wrote: "I would like to get married to a woman willing to stay home and raise our children...she would provide the best environment for my children."
He didn't write it explicitly, but you didn't infer that he wants his wife to be a good mother? What do you think is the true reason for his fondness of stay at home mothers? · 2 minutes ago
I think that this is getting at the root of a lot of the disagreement. What does the young man actually want?
My reading of his letter leads me to believe that he wants his wife to make motherhood and homemaking her highest priority. I don't see anything that indicates he never wants his wife to leave the house or have any outside activities.
-E
Aug '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
katievs
Midge
It's just that, for some people, thinking of dating as a market is really helpful in preventing them from putting themselves into relationships that demands things of them that they're unlikely to be able to give.
At least, that's how it worked for me.
I'm glad it worked that way for you, Midge. In my experience, though the market language and analogy has been a very bad one. Have you read Lori Gottleib's Marry Him, by chance?
No, but cheesy as it sounds, I did read "The Rules" and it really helped me.
Certain women -- for example, some young Christian women repulsed by the crass materialism around them -- may tend to over-romanticize -- even "over-spiritualize" -- dating. Even if they don't give their bodies away too soon, they give too much of their souls away too soon -- it seems the "unselfish" thing to do. These gals could benefit from a more "what's in it for me" attitude with respect to dating.
And many other people could benefit from a less "what's in it for me" attitude.
Courtship takes the proper amount of self-regard, not too much, not too little.
Jun '10
Re: The Intolerance of Tolerance
CandE
My reading of his letter leads me to believe that he wants his wife to make motherhood and homemaking her highest priority. I don't see anything that indicates he never wants his wife to leave the house or have any outside activities.
Let's also not overlook the fact that many of the young women he's meeting have been taught that their career should be their highest priority in life, and that having children is an entirely optional lifestyle choice. Many of these young women would be reluctant to even agree to have children as a "condition" of marriage, let alone to stay at home with those children.