The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Following up on Bill's discussion of religious liberty, and my post about the HHS contraceptive mandate--a rule being resisted by Catholic colleges--I present this alarmist editorial from the New York Times about the so-called "darkening tone" of the primaries:
Even in his victory speech Tuesday night, Mr. Romney hinted darkly at the tone of the campaign to come. He accused President Obama of ordering “religious organizations to violate their conscience” and vowed to defend religious liberty.
It was a reference to the Obama administration’s requirement that large religious institutions, like hospitals and universities, provide insurance coverage for birth control. He was promising to defend the Roman Catholic Church’s “religious liberty” to deprive its tens of thousands of employees and university students of their own liberty.
Religious liberty in scare quotes. You can't make this stuff up.
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Sep '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Now, now. You people have it all wrong. The Boston Globe will set you straight.
Catholic Church being very unfair to President Obama.
Jul '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Wow. From Pseudo's link to the Globe:
What planet is Vennochi on? Being able to see any health practice you can afford is bad, but having Death Panels determine what treatments medical personnel will be allowed to brief you on is good? Dump a few million more in the Medicaid pit to make Vennochi feel good about her choices? The Globe pays people to emit this detritus? When has any American mistaken government for a higher wisdom?
Edited on February 2, 2012 at 3:01pmFeb '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
It is unbelievably frustrating when people declare that it is a violation of their rights or liberties to tell them to pay for something themselves.
Where does one begin to set such a bassackwards person straight?
May '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Exactly, Peter. On what planet does declining to pay for others' birth control mean "depriving them of liberty"?
Apr '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Peter Gøthgen and katievs, it is so hard to respond to the NYT and Vennochi at the Boston Globe because their rants are incoherent and use language equivocally. I keep expecting them to announce that lightning bugs are electrical devices. That is no sillier than declaring that in refusing to pay for its employees' actions the Church is controlling their beliefs, or claiming that in forcing the Church to support immoral behavior Obama is standing up for religious freedom and separation of church and state.
But then Liberal Fascists will say anything, because being a Liberal Fascist means never having to say you're sorry.
I predict the bishops will cave and accept some such "compromise" as being allowed to offer employees the options of health plans that cover contraception and abortion, and plans that do not. Thus it becomes a matter of "employee choice".
Edited on February 2, 2012 at 3:46pmDec '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Grendel,
According to a catholic friend of mine, his particular archdioses is just canceling health insurance altogether and paying the fine.
Jan '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Free condoms are a "right?" This is rhetoric run amok.
They're arguing that a regulation creates a right. Requiring an insurance plan to provide free condoms and morning-after pills is a regulation, based on an agency's policy.
Now, does the right provoke the regulation, or does the regulation create a right?
Clearly, Obama's allies are using rhetoric that confuses the two. They're arguing that a regulation reflects some inherent right ... and that employees have a right to free condoms.
You see the same confusion when Jay Carney, speaking as the president's press secretary, assures America that the HHS policy is a "balance" between religious liberty and the distribution of reproductive services ... as if they were both on the same level. (You balance things that are equal.) That means they're arguing that religious liberty is no more important than condoms.
The regulatory state is now creating rights. You have a right only if the regulatory agency says so.
Jun '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kcd-frYV6s
May '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Grendel:
I predict the bishops will cave and accept some such "compromise" as being allowed to offer employees the options of health plans that cover contraception and abortion, and plans that do not. Thus it becomes a matter of "employee choice". ·
The other day a Facebook friend linked a list of over 100 bishops who had signed a protest document. I noticed that our bishop, Chaput, wasn't on it. This made me wonder: "Is he too busy cleaning up the mess in the archdiocese to attend to it immediately, or is he developing a strategy?" I can't believe that he won't eventually prove a major leader of the opposition. And I can't believe it will entail a compromise of that kind.
I think the lines are being drawn. We are in for the fight of our lives.
Sep '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
"Is he too busy cleaning up the mess in the archdiocese to attend to it immediately, or is he developing a strategy?"
I suspect both. The USCCB drew up the guidelines for the homilies, with Bishops varying in how hard they hit the key notes. If I know Chaput, he's got a cluster bomb ready, as do likely a few others, but Philadelphia is likely quite a mess.
Nov '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Peter, if they are bassackwards they need a [redacted].
Edited on February 2, 2012 at 5:27pmNov '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Yes. The bishops have played a political game, a strategy. They have wanted to avoid open conflict, but as you suggest, that may no longer be an option. I wouldn't worry about Chaput, by the way, his book "Render Unto Caesar" states his stand pretty clearly. And I always thought Jesus' original line was essentially ironic: no one knew better than He that Caesar always thinks everything belongs to him.
NB: the same MSM that will point out that millions of Catholics are using artificial birth control will turn right around and accuse the Church of genocide because people in poor countries are constrained by the Church from using birth control. Their real agenda is eugenic.
Jan '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
katievs
This made me wonder: "Is he too busy cleaning up the mess in the archdiocese to attend to it immediately, or is he developing a strategy?"
Did you catch this story in the Philly news? In a highly publicized case (publicized chiefly by the Philly Inquirer) the presiding judge said: ""Anybody that doesn't think there is widespread sexual abuse within the Catholic Church is living on another planet."
Some facts on how they match up:
Nothing prejudicial there, eh? Given the media coverage and this kind of judge, I'd say Chaput has his hands full right now.
May '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
MMPadre
Yes. The bishops have played a political game, a strategy. They have wanted to avoid open conflict, but as you suggest, that may no longer be an option. I wouldn't worry about Chaput, by the way, his book "Render Unto Caesar" states his stand pretty clearly.
I'm not the least worried. (I have the book on my shelves.) I was only curious about the omission.
It made me suspect, mainly, that there will be a back room battle among the bishops--with some anxiously seeking a "compromise" of the kind Grendel mentioned and some giving their absolute "no".
I suspect Chaput will emerge eventually as a strong leader of the Resistance.
May '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
KC Mulville
Some facts on how they match up:
I agree that it's prejudicial.
But I've never much cared for that line of argument. Sex abuse in the Church is unique in two ways:
1) It violates a sacred trust. To be abused by a priest is more damaging to a person than to be abused by a teacher, which is damaging enough.
2) It involves an institutional cover-up.
And in both these ways it abused and mangled consciences in a way that has no comparison in the secular world.
Jan '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
katievs
But I've never much cared for that line of argument. Sex abuse in the Church is unique in two ways:
Well, the argument isn't whether the abuse was wrong. Of course it was, and no one is justifying it. The argument is whether it's "widespread within the Catholic Church," as spoken by the judge who's hearing the case. Compared to the public school system, it's hard to argue that being Catholic is any more of a factor in the abuse than some other attribute.
Apr '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
katievs
Grendel:
I predict the bishops will cave and accept some such "compromise" as being allowed to offer employees the options of health plans that cover contraception and abortion, and plans that do not. Thus it becomes a matter of "employee choice". ·
The other day a Facebook friend linked a list of over 100 bishops who had signed a protest document. I noticed that our bishop, Chaput, wasn't on it. This made me wonder: "Is he too busy cleaning up the mess in the archdiocese to attend to it immediately, or is he developing a strategy?" I can't believe that he won't eventually prove a major leader of the opposition. And I can't believe it will entail a compromise of that kind.
I am going to have to write a member post about why I have soured on Chaput, and all the bishops.
May '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
KC Mulville
Well, the argument isn't whether the abuse was wrong. Of course it was, and no one is justifying it. The argument is whether it's "widespread within the Catholic Church," as spoken by the judge who's hearing the case. Compared to the public school system, it's hard to argue that being Catholic is any more of a factor in the abuse than some other attribute.
My argument is that it's worse in the Church than elsewhere.
And if you count those who knew about the abuses and participated in the coverups, I don't think it's so far wrong to say it's "widespread" in the Church. It is.
That doesn't mean "being Catholic" is a factor in the abuse, except in a cosmic sense.
A Catholic philosopher friend often says, "If I were the devil and wanted to do maximum damage to humanity, I would make it my number one goal to undermine the Catholic Church."
Besides worse evil, you will also find a much greater wealth of goodness and kindness and personal holiness among Catholic priests than among public school teachers.
It's the nature of the vocation.
May '11
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
Ken Owsley: Peter, if they are bassackwards they need a [redacted]. · 2 hours ago
Edited 49 minutes ago
amene.
May '10
Re: The Church's "Religious Liberty"
The Times's inverted notion of liberty is unsurprising. The special irony here, though, is that the healthcare proposals of Romney and most other Republicans would solve the problem the Times is complaining about. By promoting true liberty, i.e. removing the requirement that employees get insurance through their employers, they would ensure that no employees would find their coverage options restricted by their employers' religious views.