Some differences between France and America
In France, the leader of the opposition Socialist Party has garnered a huge lead in the polls by declaring that his real enemy is "the world of finance." In America, President Obama's incessant war against "fat cat" bankers has not fared so well. Likewise, the unfortunate attacks on Bain did not gain much traction.
In other news, the French Parliament and Senate have approved legislation imposing fines and/or imprisonment (up to a year!) for denying, or even "minimizing" any "recognized genocide," which at the moment includes only the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust. But of course, the French government can add to the list of recognized genocides (still waiting for them to mention Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot). In America, such a law would be struck down in a nano-second by a 9-0 vote.
When - oh, when - will the Left wake up to the fact that Europe is no role model? Would it help to send every member of the Democratic Party a copy of Daniel Hannan's The New Road to Serfdom?
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May '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
So you're saying they should surrender, right?
Jul '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
I'll add to this the popularity of openly racist, bigoted political parties and politicians across Europe - like the National Front in Britain, Geert Wilders's PVV in Holland and the PFN of France - seems to liberals to be completely mutually exclusive from the numerous "hate speech" laws across Europe (and Canada, for that matter). Is it any wonder that countries that hold citizens criminally liable for speaking their mind have bred political parties that actively work to strip away the rights of certain citizens based their religion or ethnic background? When it's OK to breach freedom of speech because most people don't like what one might have to say, it becomes OK to start taking away other rights, simply because a large enough group doesn't like a certain group of people.
Jul '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
Note, I believe the same argument applies to the gay marriage question in the US. I'm sure the Europeans believe that legalizing "hate speech" would lead to a degredation of their societal values, precisely the same reasoning many conservatives here use to justify opposition to allowing same-sex marriages. I don't buy it. We are free people, and breaching that freedom for some simply because we do not agree with them ultimately leads to greater and greater breaches.
Re: Some differences between France and America
Interesting point, but I'm not sure it's useful to lump together all laws that are motivated by a desire to maintain societal values. How many laws must fall into that category? I don't want to dismiss your concern, but I think there's an important distinction: no conservative (to my knowledge) would support a law that, say, punishes clergymen for performing gay marriage ceremonie, or that penalizes gays for referring to their partners as "spouses." Nobody's liberty is being abridged; however, not everybody gets a State-issued marriage license. What do you think?
Mar '11
Re: Some differences between France and America
Adam Freedman:
When - oh, when - will the Left wake up to the fact that Europe is no role model? Would it help to send every member of the Democratic Party a copy of Daniel Hannan's The New Road to Serfdom?
I don't think so - the Left want Serfdom, aka Fairness.
Nov '11
Re: Some differences between France and America
Adam Freedman:
When - oh, when - will the Left wake up to the fact that Europe is no role model? Would it help to send every member of the Democratic Party a copy of Daniel Hannan's The New Road to Serfdom? · · 34 minutes ago
Answers: 1) Never -- it's an article of faith, not reason. 2) No, it wouldn't help.
Jul '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
Adam Freedman
Interesting point, but I'm not sure it's useful to lump together all laws that are motivated by a desire to maintain societal values. How many laws must fall into that category? I don't want to dismiss your concern, but I think there's an important distinction: no conservative (to my knowledge) would support a law that, say, punishes clergymen for performing gay marriage ceremonie, or that penalizes gays for referring to their partners as "spouses." Nobody's liberty is being abridged; however, not everybody gets a State-issued marriage license. What do you think? · 4 minutes ago
Clergymen who performed weddings of interracial couples and such couples who referred to each other as spouses were not penalized during Jim Crow. But did the refusal to grant such couples marriage licenses not represent a breach of their rights?
Aug '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
Interesting.
If you think about it, "the World of Finance" is a much more vague target than "fat cat bankers".
Maybe American voters don't like it when Obama attacks "fat cat bankers" because he's attacking identifiable individuals. They may be bankers, but they're still human. Enough voters know people who work for banks that this line of attack makes them think twice about the man's intentions.
In contrast, when Hollande attacks "the World of Finance", he's attacking an amorphous, non-human entity. His target isn't even necessarily French, which is even better. He's attacking some sinister, conspiratorial, non-human entity made up of non-Frenchmen. The fact that he cannot identify them individually simply proves how expert they are at being evil!
Nov '11
Re: Some differences between France and America
David Williamson
Adam Freedman:
When - oh, when - will the Left wake up to the fact that Europe is no role model? Would it help to send every member of the Democratic Party a copy of Daniel Hannan's The New Road to Serfdom?
I don't think so - the Left want Serfdom, aka Fairness. · 0 minutes ago
Very well put.
As a U.S. citizen living in Barcelona and quite close to the French border, I can only say that this is the awful truth.
It does sound like a cliché, but once you go down this road you can not go back. I see it first hand every day, and I am still amazed just how merrily people here give up their civil liberties for any false sense of protection.
Nov '11
Re: Some differences between France and America
Yes, it reminds me of typical teenage angst..
I can also imagine him saying, "It´s the system! Don´t you understand, Mom?
Sep '11
Re: Some differences between France and America
The UK National Front has no support and is virtually defunct. It has been replaced by the British National Party, which has more support than anyone would wish but has failed to make any significant electoral breakthrough. Those who (misguidedly) supported legislation against hate speech did so partly in order to address the vile outpourings of the BNP and its supporters. So your points are a bit wide of the mark.
Sep '11
Re: Some differences between France and America
Send them anything you like but please don't think Daniel Hannan gives an accurate or balanced account of anything. And please don't blame the UK for the way the French conduct their affairs. The French state has long had its own way of doing things and its way of relating to its citizens is not the British way. There is more diversity in Europe than you realise. I feel you are lumping all Europe together and the result is to create a straw man.
Jul '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
America has been the arrival point for disgruntled Europeans since Jamestown. Isn't there something buried in the Common Law that would serve as a basis for banishing europhiles to the benighted realm they so adore?
Edited on January 25, 2012 at 11:52pmAug '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
Emma Goldman was deported to Russia...
Jul '11
Re: Some differences between France and America
What did one dehydrated Frenchman say to the other?
"What do we do now, Pierre?"
Jul '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
Gaby Charing
The UK National Front has no support and is virtually defunct. It has been replaced by the British National Party, which has more support than anyone would wish but has failed to make any significant electoral breakthrough. Those who (misguidedly) supported legislation against hate speech did so partly in order to address the vile outpourings of the BNP and its supporters. So your points are a bit wide of the mark.
The fact that possibly the last bastion of Whiggish sympathies in Britain is given to racist emissions is lamentable. The notion that they should be suppressed by force of law in these utterances rather than roundly and publicly out debated on their views reveals the opposition's inability to refute the values that they, too, hold so dear.
Nov '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
I love that term ...
How Orwellian.
Jul '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
Misthiocracy
Emma Goldman was deported to Russia... · 7 minutes ago
Speaking of the Krakken.
And she was an alien. Who'd have guessed?
Edited on January 26, 2012 at 12:53amSep '10
Re: Some differences between France and America
You raise a good point, and I don't think the hate laws have done anything except made the original problem worse.
Re: Some differences between France and America
Gaby, I've no intention of lumping countries together - the title of my post is "Some differences between France and America." I've lived in England, hold a UK passport, and can spot the difference between France and England at 20 paces. American liberals do tend to look at continental Europe (they lump it all together) as a model for US policy. I point to Daniel's book because it is a fine warning against statism - and entirely accurate as far as I can see.