Santorum, Pornography and the Left
GOP presidential hopeful Rick Santorum’s remarks about pornography have drawn the expected reactions: nods of agreement from social conservatives, eye-rolling from some Republicans who don’t want to see the party bogged down in controversial social issues, and derision from liberals who accuse the party of wanting to control the sexual and reproductive lives of Americans.
There is certainly some hypocrisy embedded in all those positions. You would have to be naïve to think there aren’t those among anti-pornography crusaders who head straight to the “adult” channels when they check into their hotels. Likewise, there are Republicans—and Democrats—who fear the societal toll of pornography, but are afraid to speak up lest they be tarred as blue-nosed advocates of censorship.
But it’s the position of the Left that I find most convoluted, because it’s a subject that would seem ripe for discussion within a movement so closely associated with women’s issues. After all, the exploitation and degradation of women are among the primary allures of pornography. Beyond that, you would be hard-pressed to find a marriage counselor, psychologist or family-issues expert who wouldn’t concede that there can be serious negative consequences to repeated exposure to porn.
Enter the dreaded slippery-slope argument: if you try to exercise some control, you’ll inevitably come up against a yahoo sheriff who raids the local art museum, confiscates the Chagall exhibit and jails the museum’s curator. But that’s like suggesting jury trials should be eliminated because innocent defendants are occasionally found guilty.
None of this is an argument to ban pornography, but its omnipresence in this information age certainly makes it a subject worthy of discussion. But when pornography—or any of the so-called social issues—is brought up, the political switchblades are immediately introduced, and any rational discussion seems impossible.
There are absolutists on both sides of the issue, but, as is often the case, the best course is likely to be found somewhere in the middle. That, however, would require the kind of serious and thoughtful give-and-take that seems unattainable in this era of shrill talking heads. As for the Left, their argument that the government should stay out of the bedroom is one that would be easier to support if only they weren’t so anxious to welcome it in to every other room in the house.
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Mar '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
iWc
katievs:
Heroine and cocaine offer a better comparison than cigarette smoking in terms of destructive force and social menace. · 5 minutes ago
I don't think this is right at all. Apparently 70%+ of men view porn. If 70% used hard drugs, the damage would be far, far worse. · 20 minutes ago
And would that %70 figure stay that high if it was as hard to get as Heroin?
Mar '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
EJHill:
What was celebrated 60 years ago is now something to be ashamed of and everything that was considered unseemly then is now guilt-free. · 10 minutes ago
I agree with this. We are now proud of doing things that should be shameful. Shame is essential to a good society, because without it, there is no reason for people to seek to grow.
We all do things that are wrong. When we admit that something is wrong, though, then we can try to improve ourselves.
But when we believe that wrong is right (usually because it is "natural" or it feels good, or because it is what "makes us happy"), then there is no hope.
Dec '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
I note also that the Left likes having the Government enforce exposure of what goes on in their bedrooms to schoolchildren in the name of inculcating tolerance and providing instruction in human sexuality. "Keep the Government out of our bedrooms" is dandy, but so is "Keep your bedroom activities out of our Government-run classrooms."
Apr '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Stuart Creque
Hey, guess what? I just found out that Good Housekeeping doesn't publish pornographic images and stories in its pages. Problem solved! · 13 minutes ago
I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that it's commercially obvious that Marriott should have discontinued adult entertainment sales, in which case I think you'll find yourself in the minority, or making iWc's point that we shape/ choose our environment?
I think it's worth noting that Good Housekeeping readers dating/ married to/ wishing to be dating/ married to porn consumers comprise a significant portion of pornography's victims.
As with cigarettes, I don't believe that we should be wielding the heavy hand of government here (I've long been in the habit of giving bulk cigarettes, cigars, and accessories to smoking friends and family for birthdays, Christmas, etc. in protest) but I do think that we should be honest about the brutal human cost of our correct applications of first principles.
Mar '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Douglas
iWc
katievs:
Heroine and cocaine offer a better comparison than cigarette smoking in terms of destructive force and social menace. · 5 minutes ago
I don't think this is right at all. Apparently 70%+ of men view porn. If 70% used hard drugs, the damage would be far, far worse. · 20 minutes ago
And would that %70 figure stay that high if it was as hard to get as Heroin? · 2 minutes ago
No, but so what? There is no "cure" that is better than the disease.
And at least male desire to look at porn comes from urges that can be channeled into something that is very productive and beautiful.
Jul '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
It is obviously impossible to remove all porn. Even if they shut down every producer in the US, you have the rest of the world to contend with. However, I don't understand why that precludes making it more difficult to access. Something as simple as mistyping a URL can result in all sorts of things showing up on your screen. When a simple solution like having all porn sites register as .xxx domains was floated, porn companies threw a fit because it would make it to easy to block...well yeah, that's the whole point. Why does asking for an easier way to filter it out (especially on a PC children have access to) draw cries of censorship? So not only can we not ask for actual censorship, we can't even ask to be excused from having it unwillingly shoved in our faces without being called censorious prudes?
Dec '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
James Of England
Stuart Creque
Hey, guess what? I just found out that Good Housekeeping doesn't publish pornographic images and stories in its pages. Problem solved! · 13 minutes ago
I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that it's commercially obvious that Marriott should have discontinued adult entertainment sales, in which case I think you'll find yourself in the minority, or making iWc's point that we shape/ choose our environment?
I'm taking issue with this:
"Romney's quieter strategy of dissuading a leading brand from carrying pornography carries actual benefits with none of the political costs and none of the government intrusion."
Setting aside the fact that Marriott is run by a devout Mormon family that puts the Book of Mormon in the nightstands of its hotels, and that they've always been leery of offering pay-per-view porn in their rooms, what actual benefit is it that they offer porn-free rooms? It may be a selling feature for travelers who don't want that material, but travelers who do have many other hotel choices. The fact that Good Housekeeping isn't a porno mag doesn't counterbalance Hustler.
Aug '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Turn on a tv in an European hotel and the regular channels have it on, which I was taken aback as my young children once discovered in an English hostelry.
Porno is as old as Pompeii, and the images endure past Vesuvius. It is a taboo and should be maintained as such. Liberals like to uncover taboos and dissemble the society rules in order to..well dissemble stuff so they can get some power somehow, because nobody likes to entrust with it. We'll see how that works in November. I think you would be surprised. Only the usual suspects , like the press and academia are rooting for more porn. That should tell you everything you want to know. My 15 yr is so focused on breaking down the parental controls in order to get to MTV, you'd think it was Ft Knox. Typical first amendment arguments in the wrong hands.
These are the same people presently defending Bill Maher, short argument.
Sure is good to see the Sage Sajak back.
Edited on March 16, 2012 at 7:33pmFeb '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
With parenthood I've become a lot more socially conservative (funny how that happens...). Nevertheless, I want the government's addressing of the issue limited to direct protection of children. In other words, sensible hypocrisy: porn is bad, but you can sell porn, but not to minors and the barriers for minors getting it have to be high. ...And you can't use minors in the generation of it.
With regard to internet porn, I've not found it too hard to control my kids' access. Our home computers have filters, they know the filters are there and why. The schools and library all have filters too. If they really want, they can probably figure out a way around the filters and might see something at a friend's house who doesn't have the filters, but I don't run a police state and I recognize 100% compliance is unreasonable. Besides all the barriers make clear to them why it's bad for them.
Mar '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
flownover:
My 15 yr is so focused on breaking down the parental controls in order to get to MTV, you'd think it was Ft Knox.
My 15 year old cracks award-winning parental locks in less time than it takes me to install them.
I am a libertarian of necessity as well as conviction: I need to raise my kids so they make good decisions, because I know full well that there is no practicable way to shut the big bad world out.
Edited on March 16, 2012 at 7:37pmDec '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
iWc
And at least male desire to look at porn comes from urges that can be channeled into something that is very productive and beautiful.
Except that porn does not necessarily channel those urges into something productive and beautiful.
Instead, porn provides all sorts of channels that are not universally accepted as beautiful:
The rubric "porn" includes something for everybody.
Mar '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Stuart Creque
iWc
And at least male desire to look at porn comes from urges that can be channeled into something that is very productive and beautiful.
Except that porn does not necessarily channel those urges into something productive and beautiful.
All true. And we have laws about child porn, etc. And we prosecute violators, which is good.
I want government concerning itself with things that hurts other people. Most porn does not. Child porn does, and must be fought.
I want people to be free to choose in all other respects. For many people, porn is an outlet just like the occasional beer or cigarette. I think it should remain stigmatized - but that is a function of society, not government.
Apr '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Stuart Creque
I don't see too many slippery slope arguments that say all alcohol regulation is dangerous to freedom. · 8 minutes ago
It's not a slippery slope argument, but my primary reason for not supporting Conservatives in London government is that one of Boris Johnson's first actions on taking power was to ban drinking on the subway. For about a decade, I'd been greeting Americans flying in with an ironic first taste of freedom, as we'd share, initially, beer or cider, or in more recent years, wine, as we took the subway from the airport into town. We'd have a kind of picnic, and it was a civilized, pleasant surprise for people (accurately) expecting expansive government. Sadly, the "Conservative" eventually confirmed people's prejudices.
I've also grumbled fairly extensively here about Reagan's terrible decision to make state drinking ages a matter of federal law. That sort of Constitutional assault strikes me as a classic slippery slope argument, and, indeed, the slippery slope theorists were correct to believe it would lead to further abuse of the Constitution.
Speech is also an area where slippery slope arguments tend to have particular force.
Mar '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Disclaimer: I will vote for whoever the R nominee is. Having said that . . .
This is my problem with Santorum: He seems more worried about saving my soul than protecting my rights. If he wants to worry about the Internet, why doesn't he worry about all the hacking of people's personal information? That would be much more in line with the Founders' principles than policing pornography. I mean, what's he gonna do . . . shut down all swingers clubs, too? That involves watching people have sex. And while we're at it, strip clubs gotta close as well.
As for the violence part, as much as I know outlawing the violence part seems to make sense, I also know it would never stop with porn films. You can forget the Godfather, Pulp Fiction, and any other film with violence in it eventually. The Hays Code kind of worked but does anybody really want to go back to it and accept that all the great films from the 70's and on were just cultural mistakes?
What this really comes down to, in my humble opinion, is Santorum trying to be father. And I already have one.
Mar '12
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Not even Pastor Huckabee took the moral crusade narrative when challenging McCain in 2008. Santorum though is fine with confronting the bulk of Republicans with mass induced cringeworthy.
Apr '11
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
Stuart Creque
James Of England
I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that it's commercially obvious that Marriott should have discontinued adult entertainment sales, in which case I think you'll find yourself in the minority, or making iWc's point that we shape/ choose our environment?
I'm taking issue with this:
"Romney's quieter strategy of dissuading a leading brand from carrying pornography carries actual benefits with none of the political costs and none of the government intrusion."
Setting aside the fact that Marriott is run by a devout Mormon family that puts the Book of Mormon in the nightstands of its hotels, and that they've always been leery of offering pay-per-view porn in their rooms, what actual benefit is it that they offer porn-free rooms? It may be a selling feature for travelers who don't want that material, but travelers who do have many other hotel choices. The fact that Good Housekeeping isn't a porno mag doesn't counterbalance Hustler. · 20 minutes ago
If Good Housekeeping used to carry pornography, and voluntarily stopped, I think that this would be a victory for a moral America. Do you disagree?
Aug '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
As the father of teenage boys I spend a good deal of time and thought trying to keep my boys from getting exposed to porn. It's getting more and more difficult because of the various electronic media through which porn is distributed.
Of course I cannot be with them all the time but I still feel this is a worthwhile battle because the nature of pornography is so destructive. It can become an addiction with devastating consequences in their life and can keep them from having healthy relationships with women.
Those who say that what they view in the privacy of their own home shouldn't concern anyone are fooling themselves. Once a society becomes saturated with this stuff its days are numbered. While it may be true that porn has always been around the availability and vileness has increased exponentially in the past 20 years.
The cost of this problem to our society is incalcuable. It should be roundly condemned by conservatives and liberals at every turn.
Edited on March 16, 2012 at 7:58pmAug '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
No, we cannot. Reasonable people can disagree. The key word is "simulated".
Feb '12
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
EJHill: It's not the Pornography Industry that's all screwed up (if you'll pardon the expression.) It's the Shame Industry that's upside down.
What was celebrated 60 years ago is now something to be ashamed of and everything that was considered unseemly then is now guilt-free. · 56 minutes ago
EJ, I agree completely. Tangentially, you may like Mary Eiberstadt's essay discussing how our current moral views about eating have effectively replaced our previous moral views about intimacy. Very intriguing insight.
Jul '10
Re: Santorum, Pornography and the Left
GOVICIDE: Disclaimer: I will vote for whoever the R nominee is. Having said that . . .
This is my problem with Santorum: He seems more worried about saving my soul than protecting my rights. If he wants to worry about the Internet, why doesn't he worry about all the hacking of people's personal information? That would be much more in line with the Founders' principles than policing pornography. I mean, what's he gonna do . . . shut down all swingers clubs, too? That involves watching people have sex. And while we're at it, strip clubs gotta close as well.
Unless there's a button you can accidentally hit and have strippers appear in your living room, these aren't the same thing.