Roles and Norms
The guys and I were talking at work about what time we get up and comparing morning routines. One of my coworkers chimed in with "I get up when my wife tells me breakfast is ready." This is the same guy who is surprised every day at lunch because his wife packs that for him, too. The expected inappropriate comments were made, everyone laughed, but I started thinking. This particular man can grill steaks, but is probably lost in the kitchen. When asked if his kids could cook (because his wife was out of town) the reply was, "They would starve to death otherwise." He has a life that is more akin to black and white TV sitcoms than to everyday American life in 2012.
At one point in American history this would have been considered normal. The 1950s ideal is the life social conservatives are accused of pining for. However, I don't see that as being the norm for most social conservatives I know. My in-laws are perhaps as stereotypical as it gets, but even they broke wildly from the "Leave it to Beaver" mold. My mother-in-law was in a rock band and held many other jobs (like the singing birthday card gig) to help ends meet when my wife was growing up. Most of the women I know who are homemakers (and that is very few these days) don't follow precisely along the set path that is iconic in American life. The role norms and ideals have changed drastically. I'm not sure what to think of it. Where those times better? If so, were they less good for some?
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Comments:
Dec '10
Re: Roles and Norms
And that's the reason I do most of the cooking when I'm home - I'm better at it. It's probably bragging, but my daughter hounds me regularly that I should open a restaurant. It wouldn't be fun then, however.
Re: Roles and Norms
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
You are assuming that the participants see the role as dictatorial. · 1 minute ago
Its kind of the difference between have to and should. · 1 minute ago
If you should, don't you have to anyway? · 3 minutes ago
Edited 2 minutes ago
One should do a lot of things:
Work Out
Avoid Delicious delicious bacon and steaks
Avoid cigars and delicious whiskeys
wear a bicycle helment
etc
Outside of a few sad cases you dont have to do any of those things. Every single one of those things is good and sound advice, but the wisdom of them to ones individual circumstances and life preferences is debatable. · 4 minutes ago
I'm betting we can list consequences for not doing those things that we should.
Dec '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
You are assuming that the participants see the role as dictatorial. · 1 minute ago
Its kind of the difference between have to and should. · 1 minute ago
If you should, don't you have to anyway? · 3 minutes ago
Edited 2 minutes ago
One should do a lot of things:
Work Out
Avoid Delicious delicious bacon and steaks
Avoid cigars and delicious whiskeys
wear a bicycle helment
etc
Outside of a few sad cases you dont have to do any of those things. Every single one of those things is good and sound advice, but the wisdom of them to ones individual circumstances and life preferences is debatable. · 4 minutes ago
I'm betting we can list consequences for not doing those things that we should. · 1 minute ago
The existence of consequences is not the same as an imposed obligation, the existence of consequences speaks to the relative wisdom of each choice.
The root of modern liberalism is that negative consequence for unwise choices is the same as external impositions.
May '10
Re: Roles and Norms
Well, the problems with "norms" is that they hardly ever hold up to close scrutiny. This is even the case in the propagated images of the 1950s family that people cling to when discussing this topic. Everyone loves to to cherry pick Leave it to Beaver, but the most popular show in the 1950s was I Love Lucy. Although Lucy appealed to some images of traditional gender roles, it also challenged many images of the stereotypical family, most prominently in the fact that Lucy, the independently minded housewife played by Lucille Ball, was herself the lead star of the show!
Edited on May 2, 2012 at 5:52pmMar '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Please forgive me for a deviation into the Torah.
Balaam blesses the Children of Israel, saying "how goodly are your tents." The Rabbis tell us that what made the tents "good" was that they were arranged in such a way that nobody in their tent could see into the tents of others.
There is a lesson here about modesty and privacy - but also for the undesirability for any marriage to try to define their roles and relationships by the marriages of others. Every relationship should be unique, with no consideration for "normality". No husband should say to his wife, "Bob's wife does *that* for Bob."
The idea that people should do what works for them is hardly an invention of the modern age!
Re: Roles and Norms
If you should, don't you have to anyway? · 3 minutes ago
Edited 2 minutes ago
One should do a lot of things:
Work Out
Avoid Delicious delicious bacon and steaks
Avoid cigars and delicious whiskeys
wear a bicycle helment
etc
Outside of a few sad cases you dont have to do any of those things. Every single one of those things is good and sound advice, but the wisdom of them to ones individual circumstances and life preferences is debatable. · 4 minutes ago
I'm betting we can list consequences for not doing those things that we should. · 1 minute ago
The existence of consequences is not the same as an imposed obligation, the existence of consequences speaks to the relative wisdom of each choice.
The root of modern liberalism is that negative consequence for unwise choices is the same as external impositions. · 0 minutes ago
I don't disagree with you, but it appears obligations arise in 2 ways: One because of an inherent goodness in the act, the other to avoid consequences. An obligation can be a mixture of both.
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line).
Jun '10
Re: Roles and Norms
American norms circa 1950? Surely you jest. The division of labor between male and female has antecedents stretching back to the dawn of recorded history. Women have traditionally maintained the home because they are uniquely suited to raising small children. They are biologically equipped to be mothers and they are nurturers by nature. In most societies women rule the roost while men become the public face of the family. There comes a day for boys when they leave the home and begin to accompany their dads in public for the purpose of learning male roles. I can think of few where this isn't the norm.
Women working outside the home is a mixed blessing. I hear people claim that it takes two incomes these days to raise a family. That's false. It takes two incomes to maintain a highly material standard of living. The difference between now and then is that we didn't have a super-abundance of consumer goods available in the 50's. I grew up in a household with a television, a washing machine (no dryer), and a single motor vehicle. My parents saved money even on a meager, single salary of $5,000.
Sep '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Life is complicated; I know single mothers who raised very well adjusted children, and traditional couples who raised troubled children. Does this mean that children don't need father's? My 87 year old father eats 4 slices of bacon every morning, and he is doing great, but I wouldn't recommend his diet for everyone. There are cases of non traditional families being very successful; there are also cases of smokers who live to be 100; that doesn't mean that we should recommend it.
Dec '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Tommy De Seno
If you should, don't you have to anyway? · 3 minutes ago
Edited 2 minutes ago
One should do a lot of things:
Work Out
Avoid Delicious delicious bacon and steaks
Avoid cigars and delicious whiskeys
wear a bicycle helment
etc
Outside of a few sad cases you dont have to do any of those things. Every single one of those things is good and sound advice, but the wisdom of them to ones individual circumstances and life preferences is debatable. · 4 minutes ago
I don't disagree with you, but it appears obligations arise in 2 ways: One because of an inherent goodness in the act, the other to avoid consequences. An obligation can be a mixture of both.
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line). · 3 minutes ago
I do not know your movie reference. I don't inherant goodness or the existence of negative consequences creates an obligation, unless you want to move into the realm of status incentives, and the relative loss of status and negative esteem of your family and peers is a form of external enforcement.
Re: Roles and Norms
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
If you should, don't you have to anyway? · 3 minutes ago
Edited 2 minutes ago
One should do a lot of things:
Work Out
Avoid Delicious delicious bacon and steaks
Avoid cigars and delicious whiskeys
wear a bicycle helment
etc
Outside of a few sad cases you dont have to do any of those things. Every single one of those things is good and sound advice, but the wisdom of them to ones individual circumstances and life preferences is debatable. · 4 minutes ago
I don't disagree with you, but it appears obligations arise in 2 ways: One because of an inherent goodness in the act, the other to avoid consequences. An obligation can be a mixture of both.
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line). · 3 minutes ago
I don't inherant goodness or the existence of negative consequences creates an obligation...
What does then?
Dec '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
If you should, don't you have to anyway? · 3 minutes ago
Edited 2 minutes ago
One should do a lot of things:
Work Out
Avoid Delicious delicious bacon and steaks
Avoid cigars and delicious whiskeys
wear a bicycle helment
etc
Outside of a few sad cases you dont have to do any of those things. Every single one of those things is good and sound advice, but the wisdom of them to ones individual circumstances and life preferences is debatable. · 4 minutes ago
I don't disagree with you, but it appears obligations arise in 2 ways: One because of an inherent goodness in the act, the other to avoid consequences. An obligation can be a mixture of both.
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line). · 3 minutes ago
I don't inherant goodness or the existence of negative consequences creates an obligation...
What does then? · 1 minute ago
Agreement or imposition in which there is enforcement.
I bought a candybar and I have to pay for it
I burnt down my neighbors shed, and I have to pay him back for it.
Nov '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
I don't disagree with you, but it appears obligations arise in 2 ways: One because of an inherent goodness in the act, the other to avoid consequences. An obligation can be a mixture of both.
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line). · 3 minutes ago
I don't inherant goodness or the existence of negative consequences creates an obligation...
What does then? · 1 minute ago
Agreement or imposition in which there is enforcement.
I bought a candybar and I have to pay for it
I burnt down my neighbors shed, and I have to pay him back for it. · 5 minutes ago
I'd just like to draw attention to the number of boxes in this reply. I saw this in the sidebar and thought it was a browser error.
Side note: The Breakfast Club, right?
Re: Roles and Norms
Austin Murrey
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
I don't disagree with you, but it appears obligations arise in 2 ways: One because of an inherent goodness in the act, the other to avoid consequences. An obligation can be a mixture of both.
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line). · 3 minutes ago
I don't inherant goodness or the existence of negative consequences creates an obligation...
What does then? · 1 minute ago
Agreement or imposition in which there is enforcement.
I bought a candybar and I have to pay for it
I burnt down my neighbors shed, and I have to pay him back for it. · 5 minutes ago
Side note: The Breakfast Club, right? · 4 minutes ago
Yes! It's a funny line my wife and I use once in a while pretending to order the other around.
We could be discussing anything and at the first moment of furstration one of us will yell, "You know what? Go make me a Turkey pot pie!" Then we both laugh.
Jun '10
Re: Roles and Norms
And that's my gripe with contemporary feminism: the fact that you feel the need to conceal this, almost as if it were something shameful.
We've gone from a society that stigmatized career women to one that stigmatizes homemakers, and when conservatives complain about the latter we're accused of trying to roll back the clock and reinstate the former.
Is it really so difficult to conceive a society that stigmatizes neither? Why can't people just learn to mind their own business and stop telling women how to live their own lives? Isn't that genuine feminism: choices, options, real freedom to choose?
May '10
Re: Roles and Norms
Joseph Stanko
And that's my gripe with contemporary feminism: the fact that you feel the need to conceal this, almost as if it were something shameful.
We've gone from a society that stigmatized career women to one that stigmatizes homemakers, and when conservatives complain about the latter we're accused of trying to roll back the clock and reinstate the former.
Is it really so difficult to conceive a society that stigmatizes neither? Why can't people just learn to mind their own business and stop telling women how to live their own lives? Isn't that genuine feminism: choices, options, real freedom to choose? · 12 minutes ago
I was appalled to hear Obama say that he and Michelle didn't have the "luxury" of her staying home--as if stay-at-home mom's are living in luxury! In truth, most of the women I know who stay at home do it because they think it's best for the kids, even though it involves a serious financial strain.
Nov '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Tommy De Seno
Austin Murrey
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line). · 3 minutes ago
I don't inherant goodness or the existence of negative consequences creates an obligation...
What does then? · 1 minute ago
Agreement or imposition in which there is enforcement.
I bought a candybar and I have to pay for it
I burnt down my neighbors shed, and I have to pay him back for it. · 5 minutes ago
Side note: The Breakfast Club, right? · 4 minutes ago
Yes! It's a funny line my wife and I use once in a while pretending to order the other around.
We could be discussing anything and at the first moment of furstration one of us will yell, "You know what? Go make me a Turkey pot pie!" Then we both laugh. · 22 minutes ago
The thing that's the most genius to me about that line is the specific nature of the turkey pot pie. If it was chicken pot pie or just dinner, it'd probably roll over me like most of the lines in movies.
Re: Roles and Norms
Austin Murrey
Tommy De Seno
Austin Murrey
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
Now go make me a turkey pot pie! (Tell me if you know that movie line).
I don't inherant goodness or the existence of negative consequences creates an obligation...
What does then?
Agreement or imposition in which there is enforcement.
I bought a candybar and I have to pay for it
I burnt down my neighbors shed, and I have to pay him back for it. ·
Side note: The Breakfast Club, right?
Yes! It's a funny line my wife and I use once in a while pretending to order the other around.
We could be discussing anything and at the first moment of furstration one of us will yell, "You know what? Go make me a Turkey pot pie!" Then we both laugh. · 22 minutes ago
The thing that's the most genius to me about that line is the specific nature of the turkey pot pie. If it was chicken pot pie or just dinner, it'd probably roll over me like most of the lines in movies.
Agreed! I don't know why, but the Turkey made it stand out.
Re: Roles and Norms
Joseph Stanko
Why can't people just learn to mind their own business and stop telling women how to live their own lives? Isn't that genuine feminism: choices, options, real freedom to choose? · 30 minutes ago
Fair enough for society looking in, but a husband may have some ideas on homelife that consequently limits those female choices (and vice versa).
Dec '10
Re: Roles and Norms
Just sayin'.
Dec '10
Re: Roles and Norms
Actually, I'm the cook in my house. My wife doesn't work outside the home, but I really enjoy providing for the family beyond just filling the fridge.