Roles and Norms
The guys and I were talking at work about what time we get up and comparing morning routines. One of my coworkers chimed in with "I get up when my wife tells me breakfast is ready." This is the same guy who is surprised every day at lunch because his wife packs that for him, too. The expected inappropriate comments were made, everyone laughed, but I started thinking. This particular man can grill steaks, but is probably lost in the kitchen. When asked if his kids could cook (because his wife was out of town) the reply was, "They would starve to death otherwise." He has a life that is more akin to black and white TV sitcoms than to everyday American life in 2012.
At one point in American history this would have been considered normal. The 1950s ideal is the life social conservatives are accused of pining for. However, I don't see that as being the norm for most social conservatives I know. My in-laws are perhaps as stereotypical as it gets, but even they broke wildly from the "Leave it to Beaver" mold. My mother-in-law was in a rock band and held many other jobs (like the singing birthday card gig) to help ends meet when my wife was growing up. Most of the women I know who are homemakers (and that is very few these days) don't follow precisely along the set path that is iconic in American life. The role norms and ideals have changed drastically. I'm not sure what to think of it. Where those times better? If so, were they less good for some?
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Jun '10
Re: Roles and Norms
Back when most Americans were still farmers, women were not so lonely at home. They often had older women living with them--mother or mother-in-law--and twice as many children. The men were not far away either. And, there was a lot to do. Men did what they did best, and women did what they did best, and it seemed to work. But move to the city, and the man's job gets larger (in money terms,) the women's job gets smaller, and we have the conditions for revolution.
Edited on May 2, 2012 at 4:33pmDec '10
Re: Roles and Norms
Interesting topic KP. Our family - as viewed from the outside - might be considered a throw back to the 50's. Dad works (normally on the road), Mom stays at home. We attend and are active in our church. We were blessed with 2 kids who have grown into responsible young adults.
There are a lot of divergences, however. My wife is a very good cook, but when I'm home, I do the cooking. I help keep the kitchen clean, do the vacuuming most of the time, share in the laundry duties. My "stay at home" wife is on the go most of the time. For the past 3 years she has taken on costuming all of the plays at the high school - in the past 2 years for Les Mis and Fiddler she has had to costume 60+ kids each time. Up until 2 years ago she was in charge of the women's Bible study at our church - approximately 200 women meeting every week.
There is no way that I would change these arrangements for the ultra-traditional one - Mom does the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry, etc. Cont'd
Dec '10
Re: Roles and Norms
I would feel massively guilty if I were the guy who came home every night to be preened over by my wife & kids. I would feel like a lazy slob.
So while I'm a vehement believer in the value of having Mom around home to raise the kids, there are some changes from the 50's model that I definitely like.
Re: Roles and Norms
I'm not entirely sure how much this "ideal" 1950s life was real and how much was hyped up claims by first-wave feminists. And I say that with full knowledge that the vast majority of couples I know practice a division of labor that involves the wife doing all or almost all of the meal-making.
I do believe strongly that having roles is helpful for a marriage and all relationships and also that roles enable individualism and freedom. Something to do with what my first journalism teacher always said about "you have to know the rules in order to break them."
Sep '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Yearning wistfully for the good old days is one of those traits common to man throughout the course of human history. I am certain that some old medieval French guy, at the end of his days, gazed fondly at his wife and reminisced about their courtship--thinking about the "good old days." Never mind that most of the neighborhood died of the Black Death--through the heavy filter of nostalgia, only the good parts are remembered.
In those "good old days" there was an absolute assumption that every child had a mother and a father at home. Dad went off to work, Mother did laundry, made lunch (we walked home from school for lunch, then walked back), and had snacks waiting when we came home.
Except me. My father was an Air Force pilot who'd been killed in a training accident.
So when my Cub Scout pack had a special "Father-Son Breakfast" I was not allowed to attend. My uncle couldn't take me. My grandfather couldn't take me. "You see, dear, the relationship between a boy and his father is something special...."
Childhood in those halcyon days of yore could really suck.
Aug '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Sometimes I think that our quest for stuff, that is things that require money, has us working so hard and so much we need more stuff to help us get through life. It's circular. Bottom line, we all work (moms and dads), we all work harder, and we have more and better stuff. And fewer kids. Is life better? We don't have atomic bomb attack drills in our schools, but we have lockdown drills.
Plus ça change, plus c’est pareil.
Edited on May 3, 2012 at 12:23amRe: Roles and Norms
I suspect there will be nothing but trouble waiting in this thread for a man who opines that the traditional roles should be maintained.
May '10
Re: Roles and Norms
Too many people fall into the trap of trying to determine what's "normal." In the history of the world the days we've lived are but a blip. Over the long haul of humanity we are all mostly agrarian, work the same land we live on types.
But as someone much wiser than me once pointed out, most people believe history began the day they were born. And the really smart ones think it was the day their grandparents were born.
That said, consider your own "Rolls and Norm"
Dec '11
Re: Roles and Norms
I think that if you read the lamentations of some feminists, there is a certian undercurrent that the drive to be superwomen is deeply dissatisfying for a lot of them. That said all the happy girls on my facebook wall are married moms that take great joy and pride in caring for their families. The ones that have careers aren't posting about how awesome and satisfying their jobs are....... I do read a lot about their husband's shenanigans, and that their baby just pooped in the potty for the first time......
It has been my observation that boys and girls are substantively different from our gonads to our brain structures, and that it is the height of folly to think a notional woman would be happy leading the life of a notional man, and vice versa. Not to say that there arent such people out there, just that they arent the norm.
My wife brings me coffee in the morning, and I ruthlessly assassinate every spider she finds. It drives me up a wall that she thinks I cant feed myself, but I accept that she worries and is happy when she thinks I am being looked after.
Dec '11
Re: Roles and Norms
I dont like the idea of imposed roles, but social conventions are fine.
Why lie to ourselves about who and what we are just to satisfy someone elses view of the world that they themselves aren't happy living in? It goes as much for the radical feminists as it does for the chauvenists.
Edited on May 2, 2012 at 5:24pmRe: Roles and Norms
You are assuming that the participants see the role as dictatorial.
Apr '12
Re: Roles and Norms
As a career woman who did some at home time with children, yes, we love the career but we love our family far, far more. I am a horrible cok as I have zero sense of smell and little interest in food. So my husband does the cooking during the weekend. My sons now do a meal each. But yes, I would be happy being a stay at home mum but please don't tell anyone!
May '10
Re: Roles and Norms
I think you're exactly right here, edn. A key factor in driving women out of the home is sheer loneliness.
I have lots of complaints against feminism, but I am grateful for the good it's done in making men generally more conscious of their wives need to use their talents and be recognized and appreciated for them, and also in getting men to be more involved with their kids' lives than was normal in my parents' generation. And giving domestically challenged women more scope for their interests and abilities.
And I like how free individual couples are these days to work out what works for them.
But I do think we all suffer a lot from the decline of home life generally.
I don't know what the solution is.
Dec '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Tommy De Seno
You are assuming that the participants see the role as dictatorial. · 1 minute ago
Its kind of the difference between have to and should.
Should to me leaves open the possibility of alternate choices outside of the conventional wisdom, which may themselves be wise or unwise.
Edited on May 2, 2012 at 5:31pmRe: Roles and Norms
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
You are assuming that the participants see the role as dictatorial. · 1 minute ago
Its kind of the difference between have to and should. · 1 minute ago
If you should, don't you have to anyway?
Edited on May 2, 2012 at 5:32pmNov '11
Re: Roles and Norms
I'm sorry, but how is a grown man unable to cook? It is a basic life task. Prawn, does that man's wife tie his shoes, brush his teeth and wipe his ass for him too?Growing up, my mother always cooked, but that's because she was better at it. My father is fully capable.
Sep '11
Re: Roles and Norms
My husband works 12 hour days; I do virtually all of the cooking and all of the cleaning, and I love it. Thankfully, my husband enjoys his work, so the 12 hour days don't bother him. I work part time and help him out with his business, but all said, he works far more than I do; I love bringing him his coffee in the morning! I do not find this lifestyle oppressive at all, but feminism is what I find oppressive.
Re: Roles and Norms
Girl after my own heart. You have a sister? :-)
Dec '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Tommy De Seno
Guruforhire
Tommy De Seno
You are assuming that the participants see the role as dictatorial. · 1 minute ago
Its kind of the difference between have to and should. · 1 minute ago
If you should, don't you have to anyway? · 3 minutes ago
Edited 2 minutes ago
One should do a lot of things:
Work Out
Avoid Delicious delicious bacon and steaks
Avoid cigars and delicious whiskeys
wear a bicycle helment
etc
Outside of a few sad cases you dont have to do any of those things. Every single one of those things is good and sound advice, but the wisdom of them to ones individual circumstances and life preferences is debatable.
Sep '11
Re: Roles and Norms
Tommy De Seno
Girl after my own heart. You have a sister? :-) · 5 minutes ago
Alas, I have no sisters :)