Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
Jan 2, 2011 at 3:33am
Give us your thoughts about the Wikileaks debate. Here are some of the editors' reflections:
- We obviously need a better voting mechanism. That's coming.
- The topic was terrific (thanks again, Trace!), but the resolution was too complicated: In effect we ended up debating three propositions--whether Wikileaks was a legitimate journalistic enterprise, whether it was entitled to First Amendment protections, and whether First Amendment protections would shield it from criminal prosecution. The confusion in the wording of the resolution made it a bit unclear what in the end was resolved. In future debates, we concluded, the resolution must be crystal-clear.
- We wondered whether having team leaders on either side of the debate would be helpful--either experts in the field, or Ricochet member volunteers. What do you think?
- What about the time frame? Was it too telescoped? A week, rather than three days?
And I'm curious--if you changed your vote, whose argument persuaded you to change it? If you didn't, do you think a better argument might have persuaded you?
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Comments :
Jul '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
I had hoped that the contributers would chime in more on either side. Of course, with journalists and lawyers being over-represented, and every lawyer cautious about reserving opinions for court and trying to avoid those difficult Supreme Court nomination approval hearings...
I stole some sleep to do as much as I did, and then was sucked away into client land and holiday obligations. The last day or so I caught up on this weekend. The pre-voting was on the weekend and the post-voting was not, which left a definite drop-off.
I thought the resolve was completely accurate and proper, I would have said press rather than fourth estate to align with the 1st Amendment wording, but otherwise the underlying complexity was revealed in the Supreme Court ruling. This is not only not settled law, that Court failed utterly to achieve a consensus position on either side of the question. Also, it is very hard to make a compelling case to those romanced to the Romantic Constitutionalist vein of 1st Amendment/Bill of Rights interpretation.
So the difficult points were framing the arguments and getting the vote squared away (need to get away from JavaScript on that).
Edited on Jan 2, 2011 at 4:34amJul '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
As for schedule, perhaps kickoff on a Friday and wrap up the second Sunday following, making ten days rather than three. That will make for lulls, but some of us will not be able to participate at all otherwise.
May '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
I think a Ricochet survey would give us useful information on appropriate resolutions. A good resolution is one for which no consensus exists among Ricochetians. "The Bush tax cuts should be allowed to expire" would be an awful resolution because a (negative) consensus exists for this resolution among members. Gathering data on the opinions of members on certain politico-economic propositions will enable the editors to discover divisive resolutions. If 50% of members agree with resolution x and 50% disagree, then resolution x is probably a good candidate. The survey can be a list of resolutions/propositions and members can be asked to reply whether they are "in favor" or "opposed."
Nov '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
I followed the first bit, but then didn't continue participating, precisely because of the problem you cite, Claire: the complexity of the resolution. But I agree with Michael, too; that at least at the beginning the resolution drew too little conflict to keep my interest. I also think that, Ricochet being what it is, instead of feeling more fixed in my opinion, I felt less so as I went on: people made really compelling arguments for the other side.
Oct '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
An excellent first effort, and I agree with Sisyphus, a longer comment period balancing the weekenders with the everydayers would give greater balance to the chorus. BTW, did I miss it, or did we never get an accurate tally? I'd be interested in knowing how many minds were changed by the deeper arguments towards the end. For myself, Characterize me as Conservative to the extreme right. Ricochet is definitely a blood boiler at times. Thanks...I need that.
Sep '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
If you didn't care about the topic, it dominated the front page and got to be a hassle to scroll past. Maybe you can shunt these off to a sub-page.
Nov '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Claire Berlinski, Ed.:
I sincerely believe that the most effective way to resolve a debate is to push each side of the argument to its logical extreme. Inevitably, the weaker side will appear to be much more absurd, or simply outrageous.
I consistently take very harsh, extreme right-wing positions in the forum; so I cheerfully volunteer to lead the "hardline" conservatives.
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
We were trying to do this informally. We figured the resolution should be one on which the split was no greater than 60-40 initially. We misjudged the mood on this one. That said, Twelve Angry Men was a pretty good movie despite the consensus among jurors with which it began, you know?
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Lady Kurobara
Claire Berlinski, Ed.:
I sincerely believe that the most effective way to resolve a debate is to push each side of the argument to its logical extreme. Inevitably, the weaker side will appear to be much more absurd, or simply outrageous.
I consistently take very harsh, extreme right-wing positions in the forum; so I cheerfully volunteer to lead the "hardline" conservatives. · Jan 2 at 7:10am
Excellent! Captain Lady K's Troops versus the Squish Brigade--and who volunteers to lead the latter?
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
I think we'd like to do that, yes.
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
So would I, which is why I asked. The numbers don't tell you who switched or why ...
Jun '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Debate team leaders would be a positive, especially for a longer debate period. A longer period would give time for more actual research and summarizing of source materials by volunteers assigned by the team leaders. Clarity would be enhanced by having a team leader to be able to speak for the team at various junctures and even negotiate stipulations and definitional issues with the opposing team leader. Having contributor team leaders would probably be a real plus since I think that all members especially enjoy interaction with our Eds. and Contributors
May '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
We were trying to do this informally. We figured the resolution should be one on which the split was no greater than 60-40 initially. We misjudged the mood on this one. That said, Twelve Angry Men was a pretty good movie despite the consensus among jurors with which it began, you know?
Are most Ricochet members that pliable though? I don't think so. This site attracts people who are already "center-right" (I'm not much of a fan of that description though); it doesn't convert people into center-right folks. So people are coming here accompanied by certain political convictions and the website provides a forum for the use of the dialectic among like-minded members. I find that debates here have more to do with disproving some than persuading others.
Nov '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
I have to side with Queen Lucy about the effects upon my thinking that these posts occasion. Often I begin with one opinion and leave with it unsettled or changed because of the views of others whom I respect set out in the Comments sections.
And, I agree with Sisyphus and Raycon about the extended time periods. Carrying on for a bit affords me an opportunity to reflect upon what I have read and to do some "extra-curricular reading and a little thinking on my own.
Finally, I agree with Mr. Labeit about conducting a survey of participants about the topics; the narrower and the more generally favored the better, in my view.
Dec '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Lady Kurobara
the Squish Brigade--and who volunteers to lead the latter? · Jan 2 at 7:44am
Squishes have an inherent advantage in numbers and prolixity in a forum such as that proposed as they can persist in their error without suffering from the insubstantiality of their pugnacity when there is no blood or treasure to bear.
That is one reason why the ivory towers of academia ceased being built from the tusks of elephants and are now only simulacra filled with formica desks and plastic chairs imported from China, paid out of accounts posted to the endowments established by titans long dead and to government grants flowing from the unfunded liability side of the ledger.
Maybe there should be the incentive of a pecuniary reward in winning and a penalty to pay for losing?
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
A penalty? Like what? I guess we could all ante up into a PayPal account or something beforehand. The possibility of cheating if there's real money involved shouldn't be discounted, though. Then we'd have to get really serious about verifying votes ... I dunno. I do kind of see how it would be more fun if there were an incentive beyond glory, though. Like a million-dollar prize. Let me think about this one. I kind of like it.
Jul '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Ricochet Rubles, every account starts with say 100,000, 10,000 added per month, with wagers purely for prestige and odds changing in real-time with the wagering. Resolves and elections as wagering events to start. Maybe Congressional bills, pass/fail, as they move through the sluices of power.
May '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Well i don't see that the squishes prevailed in this debate so I disagree that they have an advantage in this forum. By definition, they are also far more pliable. My mind is changed by the debate here constantly. Pilgrim was an excellent chief advocate for the FOR position, but I don't believe there should be permanent captains for two reasons: 1) simply depends on the resolution and relative conviction; 2) the most passionate advocate is not necessarily the person best able to marshal forces to win the day.
Jun '10
Re: Ricochet Resolves: After Action Report
Thanks for the complement, Trace. Any self-appointed leadership role that I may have assumed was based on my perception that the the thread was developing a lot of good ideas but that there wasn't exactly a team consensus building
Probably leaders would naturally arise in other debates and I don't know how a team leader could be chosen among the group except by the dynamics of the members interaction. ("Uh, Pilgrim, back off OK?). I like the idea of the occasional Contributor-lead debate (except Epstein vs Yoo, in which case I would be too-overawed to participate.