Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
I have no doubt that Sharia law in its brutal forms is antithetical to the Bill of Rights and has no place in America. Although there are less violent and therefore perhaps more palatable forms of it, I still cling too tightly to the American form of justice (flawed though it is) to even consider replacing any of it with Islamic law. That I know.
There are two things (at the very least) that I don't know:
First, is there is a real push by Islamists to try to have me be governed by Sharia? I know Herman Cain wants to err on the side of caution and has promised an Islamic-free cabinet and judiciary to ensure against it.
Does anyone have a yardstick by which I can measure just how big the push is among Islamic people in America to make Sharia part of our civil and criminal code, if there is such a push? Should I be concerned about it?
Second, not being a world traveler, I'd like to know if secular but majority Muslim countries like Turkey and Indonesia use Sharia Law in their civil or criminal code, or if they have separate proceedings to handle matters involving questions of Sharia. Maybe Claire Berlinski can help me out?
Let me next address a sub-issue, which is letting Muslims be Muslims in America and allowing them to follow Sharia so long as the parties to the dispute all agree (and our civil rights laws and the Bill of Rights are respected).
I'm talking about separate Sharia courts, funded by them, to allow disputes involving Sharia interpretation to be resolved there. Great Britain has a Muslim Arbitration Tribunal which operates under a British statute for that reason.
There is some precedent in America, too. American Jews have the Beth Din, where Jews can mediate disputes ranging from divorce to loans using Jewish Law.
The American in me who knows his country was founded on religious freedom wants to say yes to such private courts for Muslims. The American in me who worries about a chipping away of our culture eventually leading to it's weakening and collapse has serious reservations about it.
I'd like to know what the rest of you think, as I remain so conflicted.
Here is the Santorum video about Sharia:
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Dec '10
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
This subject has been near & dear to my heart for years, and, of course, I'm called a racist islamaphobe for it. Whatever.
For anyone interested in learning more I would recommend reading the already-mentioned America Alone by Mark Steyn and The Sword of the Prophet by Serge Trifkovic (apparently there is another book by the same title; I cannot comment on that one as I haven't read it).
Don't have time to read? I strenuously recommend Islam: What the West Needs to Know, produced in 2006. Netflix users: this is a "Watch-It-Now" downloadable movie.
*Correction: used to be a downloadable movie...put it in your queue.*
SDG
Edited on June 30, 2011 at 4:52amFeb '11
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
The "if both parties agree" is the big problem here. In the intimidating Islamic social structure, it has got be awfully tough to tell everyone around you "No, I won't do it our way, but prefer the kafr way."
Even moreso when you get into relationship issues.
How does an eighteen year old living with parents say "no?"
And how much of a foothold do you want to give such an institution, even if its voluntary? Is it hard to imagine a homeowners' association with by-laws mandating Sharia to settle any and all disputes? It starts with small harmless issues and graduates to "You can't live here anymore if your teenaged children don't dress our way or have the right friends."
Edited on June 30, 2011 at 12:55pmRe: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Sisyphus
Tommy De Seno: Question: I just heard from a friend who is married to a Turk and spends much time there. She tells me that as far as she knows, they don't use Sharia law at all.
If it isn't creeping into the system there despite being marjority Muslim (where you would expect that it would be easier to establish), is there truly a concern that it could be established in any form here? · Jun 29 at 2:55pm
Repost this when you have received a building permit to build or maintain an active church or synagogue in Turkey.
There are plenty of active churches and synagogues in Turkey--this idea is completely mistaken. Where did you hear this? I've seen most of these myself.
May '10
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Here's an example of Shariah coming to America because we're dependent on Persian Gulf states to finance our real estate development projects: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/housingcomplex/2011/06/23/who-needs-liquor-laws-when-youve-got-qatar/
This project in downtown DC is going forward despite the recession because Qatar's real estate arm stepped in as primary owner of the project. The project is now Shariah compliant, so no bars allowed in this enormous development in the heart of happy hour land.
This isn't a new law on the books of DC, but the city government and the co-investors are abiding by Shariah (which is a legal and moral code; no distinction between civil laws and moral laws; they are one and the same).
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
It's a real mistake to see those military interventions--save for the '97 warning, which was not a coup--as having much to do with protecting secularism. Nothing I've written about the defects of the legal system now should be interpreted to mean this was some kind of judicial paradise before. It surely was not. Without wanting to simplify too much, what I object to here is not that things are getting worse--in fact, you could argue that this is an improvement, given that Turkey (under the AKP) has abolished the death penalty and made progress in reducing torture. What I object to is that it's mostly staying the same--it's just different people in power.
Edited on June 30, 2011 at 1:37pmJul '10
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Sisyphus
Tommy De Seno: Question: I just heard from a friend who is married to a Turk and spends much time there. She tells me that as far as she knows, they don't use Sharia law at all.
Repost this when you have received a building permit to build or maintain an active church or synagogue in Turkey. You can no more do that in Turkey than in Saudi Arabia under Sharia.
Funny that you mention this. First of all because Claire proved it false, and second because the converse is true in the United States. The monstrosity being built in Lower Manhattan notwithstanding, across the suburban US building permits for new mosque construction and renovations to mosques, and place of worship zoning requests are being shot down due to resistance from local residents. I wouldn't mention this if local residents were singling out Wahhabi-backed projects, but my own community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, a peaceful sect that has been the target of extremist violence since the late 19th century, has been met with the same resistance for its own mosque projects. If that's not simple Islamophobia then what is it?
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Humza Ahmad
the converse is true in the United States. The monstrosity being built in Lower Manhattan notwithstanding, across the suburban US building permits for new mosque construction and renovations to mosques, and place of worship zoning requests are being shot down due to resistance from local residents. I wouldn't mention this if local residents were singling out Wahhabi-backed projects, but my own community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, a peaceful sect that has been the target of extremist violence since the late 19th century, has been met with the same resistance for its own mosque projects. If that's not simple Islamophobia then what is it? · Jun 30 at 6:27am
Humza,
There is a problem with this throughout the country. As a religion reporter, I have to mention that it's not unique to Muslim houses of worship. We see stories about communities trying to stop the building, expansion or enhancement of worship places far too often.
Even my childhood (Lutheran) church is facing some of this right now.
But certainly some groups -- and I'd say Mormons and Muslims are chief among them -- face it worse.
Jul '10
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Sisyphus
Tommy De Seno: Question: I just heard from a friend who is married to a Turk and spends much time there. She tells me that as far as she knows, they don't use Sharia law at all.
If it isn't creeping into the system there despite being marjority Muslim (where you would expect that it would be easier to establish), is there truly a concern that it could be established in any form here? · Jun 29 at 2:55pm
Repost this when you have received a building permit to build or maintain an active church or synagogue in Turkey.
There are plenty of active churches and synagogues in Turkey--this idea is completely mistaken. Where did you hear this? I've seen most of these myself. · Jun 30 at 4:16am
That list seems a little misleading. A chunk of those don't qualify Claire. Museums don't count, and neither do churches that are now mosques.
Mar '11
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
It's a real mistake to see those military interventions--save for the '97 warning, which was not a coup--as having much to do with protecting secularism. Nothing I've written about the defects of the legal system now should be interpreted to mean this was some kind of judicial paradise before. It surely was not. Without wanting to simplify too much, what I object to here is not that things are getting worse--in fact, you could argue that this is an improvement, given that Turkey (under the AKP) has abolished the death penalty and made progress in reducing torture. What I object to is that it's mostly staying the same--it's just different people in power. · Jun 30 at 4:29am
Edited on Jun 30 at 04:37 am
You suprise me a great deal here. My contention is not that matters in Turkey are better or worse than in previous decades but that a military driven by Kemalist ideology and heavily involved in Turkish politics has had great influence in preventing the spread of Islamism in Turkey. Are you disputing this?
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Roberto You suprise me a great deal here. My contention is not that matters in Turkey are better or worse than in previous decades but that a military driven by Kemalist ideology and heavily involved in Turkish politics has had great influence in preventing the spread of Islamism in Turkey. Are you disputing this? · Jun 30 at 9:13am
Yep, I sure am. This is so much more complicated than the way it's usually portrayed. The object of this game has been to dominate the political system, with almost every party to it willing when it suits them to play the Islam game--including the military. Who, for example, nurtured the Turkish Hezbollah? The military. They figured it would be a bulwark against the (Maoist) PKK. If you want to begin to understand this country, you've got to think about political Islam as only one card at play in a very complex deck involving tribalism, feudalism ... I mean, the claim that the military coups were aimed at stanching Islamism is misleading. It was only the NSC warning that led to Erbakan's resignation that can be viewed that way. '60, '80, '71--no.
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
The point is that there are plenty of active churches and synagogues on that list. That list was compiled for tourists curious about landmarks, not to make a political point, but you can see that there are plenty of active churches and synagogues. I live near them, for goodness sake.
Jul '10
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
The point is that there are plenty of active churches and synagogues on that list. That list was compiled for tourists curious about landmarks, not to make a political point, but you can see that there are plenty of active churches and synagogues. I live near them, for goodness sake. · Jun 30 at 9:58am
Oh sure, point taken. But Sisyphus didn't write that there were no churches or synagogues in Turkey. He doubted the ease of garnering permits for them currently.
You've written about the higgledly-piggledly nature of current development in Istanbul. Would it be as comparatively (churches aren't houses or tenements, obviously) easy to construct a church or synagogue?
Edited on July 1, 2011 at 2:42amRe: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Palaeologus
You've written about the higgledly-piggledly nature of current development in Istanbul. Would it be as comparatively (churches aren't houses or tenements, obviously) easy to construct a church or synagogue? · Jun 30 at 5:38pm
Edited on Jun 30 at 05:42 pm
That I don't know--given the demographics of it, I don't think many new churches or synagogues get built. But I doubt you'd encounter obstacles if you wanted to build one beyond the usual need to bribe everything in sight.
Jul '10
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Sisyphus
Repost this when [Tommy] received a building permit to build or maintain an active church or synagogue in Turkey.
There are plenty of active churches and synagogues in Turkey--this idea is completely mistaken. Where did you hear this? I've seen most of these myself.
Regrettably:
Here is one eye opener.
Here is the story from Hurriyet of a Syriac church that waited only four years for their permit, with defensive sounding quotes from all parties.
Here are the travails of a Protestant church in Ankara faced with closure due to zoning machinations.
Here is the USCIRF (United States Commission on International Religious Freedom) annual report on the general state of religious freedom in Turkey for the period ending March 31, 2011. It identifies some of the petty barriers erected to harass worshippers of various faiths, including Muslims and Christians.
That the Roman Catholic Church has been unable to achieve legal status to operate in Turkey is astounding. As with many things, if you have clout and focus you might get it done, but pack a lunch.
Someday, our own press may actually report on these things.
Edited on July 1, 2011 at 8:25amJul '10
Re: Rick Santorum Talks About Sharia Law. On a One to Ten Scale - How Concerned Should We Be?
Humza Ahmad
Sisyphus
Repost this when you have received a building permit to build or maintain an active church or synagogue in Turkey. ...
Funny that you mention this. First of all because Claire proved it false, and second because the converse is true in the United States. The monstrosity being built in Lower Manhattan notwithstanding, across the suburban US building permits for new mosque construction and renovations to mosques, and place of worship zoning requests are being shot down due to resistance from local residents. I wouldn't mention this if local residents were singling out Wahhabi-backed projects, but my own community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, a peaceful sect that has been the target of extremist violence since the late 19th century, has been met with the same resistance for its own mosque projects. If that's not simple Islamophobia then what is it?
Claire asserted it was false. I have responded. It is possible, but there are barriers.
I have Muslim friends that escaped from Muslim countries where they were persecuted as you describe here. I would no more dismiss zoning boards as Islamophobic without review of the facts than I would reject all Muslims as Wahhabi extremists.