Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
To the horror and consternation of Markos Moulitsas, more Republicans than Democrats and Independents think "it is ever justified for citizens to take violent action against the government." When asked to agree or disagree by CBS pollsters, American respondents answered as follows:
Republican 28% yes, 64% no
Democrat 11% yes, 81% no
Indepdent 11% yes, 81% no
Where to begin? On closer inspection, those apparently 'extreme' Republicans are actually in the mainstream of (small l, small d) liberal democratic thought: more than others, they share the view of Locke and the Founders that justice sometimes requires political violence.
On the other hand, look at those no numbers! Even Hobbes conceded that an individual possessed a natural right to evade capture and punishment by the sovereign. Are we to conclude that most Americans are actually less interested in liberty than Hobbes?
Not quite. In fact, regardless of its problems, this poll suggests that the world Hobbes wanted is very much upon us today in one simple respect: most people can't imagine what would count as a good reason to take up arms against the government. The all-powerful, awesomely authoritative sovereign rules!
Or so it seems. Any decent political analyst must admit that this poll is not terribly well calibrated to its respondents. But however poorly calibrated, the question it poses has a plain meaning -- and the Republicans polled more often delivered the answer we best associate with that plain meaning than the Democrats and independents polled.
Shouldn't it give us pause that the plain meaning of this simple, important question turns out to be poorly calibrated to a random sample of Americans?
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Oct '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Depending on the position of the government of the moment, those numbers will move a great deal. Had the poll been taken in early 2007, you could guess how many Democrats would decide quite differently. Wow... what a surprise!!
Remove the subjective aspects of the poll, and my guess is that there would still be a larger number of us flyover conservatives who would hold the feral government in low enough regard that we would still hold the option of rebellion dear.
May '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Good point, although surveys like this aren't really designed to get people thinking about issues they haven't contemplated before. The survey could instead be prefaced like this..
Q: Which of the following issues would you say most passionately support?
... with the answer coded as "Hot Button Issue"
Then, the "is it ever justified to take violent action against the government" question could be posed, and the answer recorded.
This could then be followed with an egregious example that corresponds to the Hot Button Issue identified above. For example, if the person said they were a supporter of constitutional checks and balances, you'd pose the hypothetical:
Q: Let's say the President directed the military to take into custody the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court. He then declared himself "President for Life" and proceeded to enact his agenda.
In that circumstance, would it be justified to take violent action against the government?
In that case, I think you'd get a more considered set of responses.
Jan '11
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
I'd take it as a two part question.
The survey results would fit comfortably into (2). Much more than half can't foresee the country falling into the condition which would unravel the government. Those conditions, such as a breakdown of justice, widespread and unstoppable corruption, etc., just don't look possible, at least anytime soon.
On the other hand, it's part of our national DNA that if the government acts as a tyrant, we have the right (in fact, the obligation) to dissolve it.
Oct '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Is this really surprising? We live under a nanny state, are products of a public education system with a YMCA mentality, and attend churches where everyone is supposed to be nicer than Jesus! Why, you sound like you might even be a bully. You wouldn't be a bully would you? Because if you are, well I'd just have to tell on you!
Edited on Jan 15, 2011 at 1:44pmMay '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Ottoman makes the point very succinctly that polls are phrased to achieve the result the pollsters wanted. Pollsters know that right of center people are more likely to think they have the right to topple an out of control government. It goes without saying that libs and most centrists think there is no such thing as a government out of control. So, you see the results. The problem is they frame this in the tuscon shooting and it looks bad. They know better, but they don't care.
May '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Republicans are more likely to understand and support the 2nd Amendment under any political conditions.
If these poll results suggest anything, it's that the majority of participants understood that the poll's timing was not coincidental.
Nov '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
It is good to see Ricochet discussing the "R-word."
When it comes to conjectures about revolution, polls are meaningless. According to the most reliable historical analysis, during the American Revolution, roughly one-third of the Colonists favored independence, one-third preferred to remain loyal to Britain, and one-third did not give a damn one way or the other.
If revolution comes to America, it will be because a courageous few, driven by desperation, take action. Depending on how insane the Federal Government actually is, the military will then step in and take over, dissolving useless federal departments and restoring some form of fiscal order, after which they will return the government to civilian control under a handpicked Republican administration. The military is, after all, a bastion of conservatism. Yes, it would be a "coup."
That scenario is based on historical precedent. I would like to see something different, like massive civil disobedience. In particular, I would love to see all fifty governors stand shoulder-to-shoulder and simply refuse to accept the most outrageous dictates from Washington.
If a Republican becomes President in 2012, the very first thing he should do is call for a new Constitutional Convention.
Jun '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
No Justice! No Peace!
(Originally attributed to Congresswoman Maxine Waters, ginning up the folks after Rodney King tangled with the LAPD)
Dec '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Well, LK, I often read your comments and think, "she speaks for me." But, really? You believe the Constitution is what needs fixing?
I think the proper answer to the question by any red-blooded American with any cultural grounding in our history should be, "heck yeah!" (staying within the Ricochet rules of engagement here). I find it appalling that so few Republicans and Independents (c'mon Independents!) answered properly. However, what we're witnessing is a cultural decline, not a constitutional one. We have at least one generation of people who believe it is good and proper for authorities to tell them how to live. Don't smoke, don't eat salty and fatty foods, don't flush too much water down your toilet, blah blah blah. Even, "hey "kids," we're going to see to it you can stay on your parents insurance until you're 26!" Woo hoo! Or, how about, "you shouldn't drive in snow to a football game, so we're going to cancel it." Well - it's for your own good, right? We are becoming a nation of subjects rather than free citizens. I have no suggestions on how to fix that problem.
Nov '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Forgive me for not clarifying my position. I believe that a Constitutional Convention should be called in order to re-affirm the principles of our Founding Fathers. The Federal Government has been grossly abusing the Commerce Clause, using it to justify all sorts of outrageous actions and programs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce_Clause
The Commerce Clause should be clarified and weakened. Also, I think a lot more muscle should be put into the Tenth Amendment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
In short, we must restore some measure of true Federalism to the country.
There is no question that the Federal Government is resorting more and more to extra-legal and extra-Constitutional methods. This will inevitably provoke a crisis, setting up pre-revolutionary conditions in America. If History is any guide, a pre-revolutionary stage is generally very short and temporary, followed almost inevitably by fullblown revolution.
Edited on Jan 15, 2011 at 4:26pmSep '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
Anyone who thinks the humans we elect are worthy of much of anything should read this:
http://cafehayek.com/2011/01/el-hombre-3.html
Many people in politics are not parasites but we should always be aware of what a powerful attraction power has on parasites and we should be mentally prepared to give them what they deserve.
May '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
How is it that the generations most noted for the loudest proclamations of non-conformity succumbed so completely to conformity?
Sep '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
I don’t know squat about poling etc. I did note the words “violent action” in the question that was asked. For myself I would be 10 times more concerned about violence at an anti-war rally than at an anti-tax rally. What am I missing? Other than that the pole is probably meaningless.
Sep '10
Re: Republicans, 'Extremism', and the Triumph of Hobbes
I am not looking for revolution when we have a functioning democracy (and we still do), but it is hard for me to comprehend why the answer is not 100% yes at least as it is phrased.
Now to go way over the top. If I to be consigned to a ghetto and there to wait to be shipped to the camps, I guess most respondents would prefer I picket with a sign. I think what this shows is a Polyanna-ish belief that governments never go wrong. If only my example was fantasy.