Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Apparently. The New Mexico Court of Appeals has upheld a judgment against a Christian-owned photography studio that declined to take pictures for a gay couple's commitment ceremony. Now, you might think that the owners of a business like a photography studio have a perfect right to accept or decline clients as they see fit. But if you think that, you haven't been keeping up with "public accommodation" law.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 introduced the concept of "public accommodations" to ban discrimination in places like hotels and restaurants, i.e., places that provide the necessities of life like food and shelter. But in New Mexico (as in most states, alas), a public accommodation is now defined as "any establishment that provides or offers its services, facilities, accommodations or goods to the public," i.e., any business. And so, if you have the nerve to run a business, you must forsake your religious principles if they might be deemed insensitive to gays, lesbians, or other protected categories (which, depending on the state, can include the obese, smokers, people of Appalachian origin, etc. etc.).
Is it not depressing that a small-time photographer, who wanted nothing more than to photograph the subjects of her choosing, has a judgment against her for violating the politically-correct sensibilities of the state "human rights commission?"
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Dec '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Joseph Eagar
The King Prawn
Straight couples don't need to clamor for legitimacy of their acts; they already have it. It's not "relationships" that straight people have a problem with. It is the acts. There is simply no way to condone an intimate relationship while condemning the sexual aspects of it. · 9 minutes ago
To put it bluntly, why are you obsessing over the sex life of others? Do youseek public legitimacy for every type of sexual act you engage in? The idea is absurd. · 3 minutes ago
I already have legitimacy by virtue of being heterosexual. I'm not obsessed with their sex lives, but they are because they lack legitimacy. Otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to force me and everyone else to condone their acts.
Oct '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
The King Prawn
Joseph Eagar
The King Prawn
Straight couples don't need to clamor for legitimacy of their acts; they already have it. It's not "relationships" that straight people have a problem with. It is the acts. There is simply no way to condone an intimate relationship while condemning the sexual aspects of it. · 9 minutes ago
To put it bluntly, why are you obsessing over the sex life of others? Do youseek public legitimacy for every type of sexual act you engage in? The idea is absurd. · 3 minutes ago
I already have legitimacy by virtue of being heterosexual. I'm not obsessed with their sex lives, but they are because they lack legitimacy. Otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to force me and everyone else to condone their acts. · 3 minutes ago
I don't think that sentiment is shared by all, or even most, gays. Those who feel that way are wrong, obviously, and the courts shouldn't listen to them. But I don't believe everyone thinks like that.
Edited on June 13, 2012 at 9:57pmDec '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Joseph Eagar
The King Prawn
Joseph Eagar
To put it bluntly, why are you obsessing over the sex life of others? Do youseek public legitimacy for every type of sexual act you engage in? The idea is absurd. · 3 minutes ago
I already have legitimacy by virtue of being heterosexual. I'm not obsessed with their sex lives, but they are because they lack legitimacy. Otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to force me and everyone else to condone their acts. · 3 minutes ago
I don't that sentiment is shared by all, or even most, gays. Those who feel that way are wrong, obviously, and the courts shouldn't listen to them. But I don't believe everyone thinks like that. · 1 minute ago
No one cares about the emotions one person has for another. Feel whatever you want. Don't, however, attempt to equate sodomy and fellatio with the heterosexual act of procreation.
This is probably rabbit trailing down a hole it shouldn't. (Are bad puns CoC violations?)
Back on topic, would an observant Jewish photographer be required under this ruling to photograph a pig roast?
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
I am not free unless someone, somewhere, is put in chains!
Mar '11
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Frozen Chosen
While your reasoning is rational, Mendel, unfortunately too many of the judges in our country are not. My problem with libertarianism is that it is long on theory and short on practice. Political theory has to take into account the actual state of our society.
I agree that we have progressed to a point where our judiciary often plays the role of making what we "feel" is right into diktat.
However, we will not correct this wrong with another wrong. If our judicial system is horribly flawed, then we should fix the judicial system, and not change our legislative process to compensate.
Dec '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Adam,
Very important big little story. The 1964 Civil Rights Act was a response to 100 years of virulent prejudice. Even the first affirmative action was only geared to make it easier to file a suit. However, madness descended upon us all when the quota-based mentality of the 70s set in. Now the presumption of guilt without any proven crime or injury became a norm. Just check the identity of the complaint and round up the usual offender. No need for facts or law done deal.
If we are to take the Free Exercise Clause seriously then at some point the Government's need to control the marketplace must yield to the private business person's right to run their business as they see fit.
How absurd to assert that the Gays were in any way damaged by the actions of the photographer. This is a vicious anti-religious law suit filed to punish the only real victim here the photographer.
Regards,
Jim
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Hey there, jumping back into the conversation... I actually don't view this case as directly related to the legal status of gay marriage -- as I understand it, NM doesn't grant same-sex marriage licenses but will recognize out-of-state licenses. To me, this case is about the absurd stretching of "public accomodation law" to give state human rights commissions a license to roam the countryside looking for people who offend their sensibilities. Thus, even in a state that forbids same-sex marriage, the human rights commission can bring an action against a photographer like Elane.
Dec '11
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Homosexual couple are mad because they don't get the picture. :-)
To borrow from the Wisconsin protesters, "This is what toleration looks like" and it is a dark room.
Get prepared to groan again, this couples sense of "Live and let live" never developed.
If the photographer was Muslim would the court or the couple acted the same way. For some reason I don't think so.
Edited on June 13, 2012 at 11:41pmApr '12
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
It's that too. But the reason they feel justified in doing that is because they see the coercive normalization of homosexuality as a vitally important and righteous cause. The fact that the state doesn't allow same-sex marriage isn't particularly interesting per se; it's a very safe bet that the justices involved in the ruling think that it should.
On the question of whether homosexuals want sanction for sexual acts or relationships, I would answer: it's a false dichotomy. Homoerotic sexual acts are a constitutive and defining part of the relationships that homosexuals want sanctioned. Marriage (or even pseudo-marriage) is a package deal; if it weren't there would be no point in formalizing it. Sex is by common consent an essential part of the package. So yes: in agitating for marriage, homosexuals are seeking public sanction of their sex lives.
Mar '11
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Adam: do "public accomodation" laws differentiate between being and acting?
It seems to me that a restaurant refusing to serve someone known to be gay simply based on their identity is much different from a restaurant refusing to cater a gay marriage. In the case of Elane Photography, they were objecting to photographing a certain behavior (a celebration of homosexuality), not a certain type of person. Personally, I am somehwat amenable to anti-discrimination laws which forbid discrimination based on who someone is, but not what they are doing.
Homosexuality seems to present a unique dilemma because it is not merely an identity (such as skin color), but is irrevocably entwined with specific, unique behaviors. Does the law make a distinction between these two? If not, perhaps that would be an acceptable compromise.
Edited on June 14, 2012 at 12:03amAug '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Adam, somehow I doubt that the NM Human Rights commission would've gone after the photographer had she been an athiest who refused to photograph a couple getting married in a Christian church. They only took an interest because the complaintants were gay.
Apr '12
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for years and the Gay Pride parade has declined in attendance and the City is talking about stopping funding. The problem is the gay activists who go after the religious church halls for not allowing their marriage. Then there are the gay groups wanting anal sex taught in the school curriculum at a very young age. I am not supportive of that and the government had to back down. There are gay alliance groups in many high schools and now they want into the Catholic schools but funny enough, have not mentioned the Muslim schools. In business and schools, gays are out and about and that is fine. The problem is the drama created by the aggressive few, much like the Feminazis who speak for all women.
Nov '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Adam, what are the chances that this ruling will be appealed, and what are the chances that it will be overturned on appeal?
Oct '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
The King Prawn
No one cares about the emotions one person has for another. Feel whatever you want. Don't, however, attempt to equate sodomy and fellatio with the heterosexual act of procreation.
This is probably rabbit trailing down a hole it shouldn't. (Are bad puns CoC violations?)
Back on topic, would an observant Jewish photographer be required under this ruling to photograph a pig roast? · 5 hours ago
You seem to have a very sex-centric view of human relationships. Who exactly is equating the two?
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Frozen: I agree. Gays are a protected category, Christians are not. My point is simply that this sort of case is not a direct result of gay marriage (as some of the comments suggest). Rather, this case illustrates the dangers of unelected human rights busybodies run amok. A state human rights commission can go after such cases of "discrimination" whether or not the state has legalized gay marriage. I do have concerns about gay marriage, but they are distinct (and I hope to post more on the subject soon).
May '12
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
The story I heard on PBS is that when a wealthy Jewish businessman went to a hotel in upstate New York and was denied a room because of his religion, he and his friends opened a rival hotel that would.
Middle-class Blacks, denied access to beaches in the southern states, bought up their own beaches and ran them for years, effectively as Blacks-Only as the Whites-Only were White-Only.
If Gays & Lesbians in Canada are denied weddings in Catholic churches and receptions in Catholic-affiliated halls, why not open up their own? Or is that too straightforward.
I personally would not turn to this photographer after what she did. But that is my choice as much as hers was hers.
I do wish people would understand that the concept of shaking the dust of their villages off your feet can be a viable alternative.
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Lucy, I'm glad you asked. Now I see a report that the photographer will appeal to the NM Supreme Court, assisted by the top-notch Alliance Defense Fund. I can't give odds on her success, but I'd say there's a fighting chance.
Sep '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Austin Murrey:
I don't personally think there should be a distinction at the federal (or state) level when it comes to the sexual orientation of marriage partners.
I don't think any jurisdiction in the country makes any distinction between a heterosexual and a homosexual for the purposes of marriage. As long as the two parties to a marriage are of opposite sex and other conditions such as age, the marriage should be recognized. The state has no business noticing the parties' orientation.
Dec '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
Joseph Eagar
The King Prawn
No one cares about the emotions one person has for another. Feel whatever you want. Don't, however, attempt to equate sodomy and fellatio with the heterosexual act of procreation.
This is probably rabbit trailing down a hole it shouldn't. (Are bad puns CoC violations?)
Back on topic, would an observant Jewish photographer be required under this ruling to photograph a pig roast? · 5 hours ago
You seem to have a very sex-centric view of human relationships. Who exactly is equating the two? · 13 hours ago
With intimate relationships the sexual aspect cannot be isolated from the emotive. Those pro homosexuality want to remove it from the debate so they can argue the cons simply are heartless. Those against homosexuality would rather deny the real emotions and focus solely on the sexual aspects. In truth, to discuss one is to discuss the other.
Dec '10
Re: Religious Liberty Does Not Apply to Businesses
I think both SSM and gay discrimination lawsuits are separate battles in the same war, the war to normalize homosexuality.