Refighting the American Revolution
An amusing parlour game, I hope. On which side would you be? Be honest, now. The easy thing is to say I'm a Patriotic American, dammit! But, really? I'd be a Tory.
Think about it. You have a millenium of tradition, your King and your Mother Country. Ranged against that, you have some citified intellectual fops hanging around in France and whinging about having to pay for our own defence. Against Indian tribes.
I would've printed a pamphlet titled "What a Bunch of Wankers" stood firmly with King and Country, Throne and Altar, and considered myself a Patriot, and those guys Traitors.
Placing it in context, would you have been a Roundhead or Cavalier? See? Nobody likes Oliver Cromwell, that joyless stick in the mud. Everyone loves the Restoration of Charles II (Old Rowley,as he was called for his prize stallion).
I'm obviously a Tory/Cavalier. What say you?
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Oct '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I'm not sure, but my own family history suggests a strong rebellious streak. Fighting first against Mexico City in the 1830s and 1840s and then taking the side of the Confederacy during the Civil War (one ancestor was a high-ranking Confederate officer). Thus, I'd likely have been a Patriot/Roundhead.
May '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Hmm. I can see you as a Revolutionary/Cavalier. You have to be pretty dour (and not remotely Catholic) to be a Roundhead.
The modern Tea Party is based on saying "enough is enough!" The Royal gummint wasn't all that onerous, which is why I'm a Tory/Tea Partier. Things have changed in a big way.
Jul '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Intriguing post, Kennedy. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been a Tory. As for the roundheads and cavaliers, I'd have to think about it for awhile.
Oct '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Yes, that's a good point, Kennedy. The Roundheads hated Charles I because of his alleged Catholic leanings. And I am 100% Catholic: French Canadian (via Montana) from my dad's side, Hispanic Texan from my mom's.
Edited on Feb 19, 2011 at 11:11pmMay '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Thanks, man. Came to me in a fit of mad humour, but happy to have you on board.
May '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Though Cromwell's hat makes him look like Flownover.
May '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I think, Kenneth, the question becomes do you want to vote for Woodrow Wilson, the scowling control-freak Puritan, or Bill Clinton, the happy go-lucky live and let's forget about it guy. Muslim Brotherhood or King Farouk, to put it in podcast context.
That's a separate question, of course, from which system you'd prefer.
Aug '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
That millennium of tradition did nothing for Ireland, which by their laws was actually part ot the UK and which saw it's population halved through starvation and necessary emigration in the mid-19th Century.In fact the population of the island still hasn't recovered to it's pre-famine level. So if you think Britain was a benign ruler with the best interests of it's subjects at heart, think again.
Feb '11
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I don't know...my ancestors were veterans of both Cromwell, Washington, and the Whiskey rebellion; but also fierce Unionist in the Civil War - so I hope that I share enough of their genes to come out a true revolutionary. Although considering I am a faithful servant of the Hapsburg Monarchy, it would be a stretch...
I see myself as a political Whig with Tory-big-cake-Russell Kirk style sensibility - some how it all makes sense.
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Mike LaRoche: Yes, that's a good point, Kennedy. The Roundheads hated Charles I because of his alleged Catholic leanings. And I am 100% Catholic: French Canadian (via Montana) from my dad's side, Hispanic Texan from my mom's. · Feb 19 at 11:10pm
Edited on Feb 19 at 11:11 pm
Interesting heritage, Mike.
May '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I definitely have a huge Tory streak in me. Maybe a basic Tory substance with savory streaks of liberty-loving radicalism.
I do love Tradition. And high culture.
On the other hand, I hate and despise paternalism in all its forms. Paternalism gets my Irish up.
I am a devout Catholic anti-clericalist. (I love the priesthood, I deplore clericalism.)
I like to think I would have stood with Burke if I'd been in England: condemning the French Revolution, while endorsing the American one. If I'd live here, I fear I would have just hated all the mess and violence and ugliness of revolution.
Edited on Feb 20, 2011 at 7:04amMay '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Some of this ambivalence within modern conservatism goes to its roots as a strange coaltition, including, for instance, radical libertarians and anti-change, pro-tradition, "monarchist" types.
Rand Paul would be a Patriot, no doubt. Bill Buckley? A Tory, I bet. (Dang, I wish you could have asked him, Kennedy!) And yet today these types make strange partners.
It's also important to remember how last-resort was the Patriot cause; they so wanted to remain loyal. Remember Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration included the regret "We could have been a great people together" (or thereabouts). Too bad it wasn't left in there.
Edited on Feb 20, 2011 at 8:26amMay '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I resent the use of the word "Patriot". As I see it, could have been used by Loyalists just as easily. Man, this would be a good question for WFB.
Jan '11
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
With respect, this post mischaracterizes the Revolution. American Whigs nor "Tories" viewed themselves as Roundheads or Cavaliers. They were all Whigs because they believed in constitutional monarchy. "Tory" became the moniker Americans used against their Loyalists enemies. The truth is that most colonial Americans agreed in their grievances against England. What finally separated them was the leap in the dark of independence.
The Revolution was about the constitutional questions underlying taxation. To oversimplify somewhat: What was at stake was the nature of the English constitution, was it one that adhered to custom, tradition, and common law (the American argument) or was it one where Parliament's command was the law (England's argument)? Thus, the Revolution wasn't about the types of taxes or defending borders but authority and nature of the English constitution that enacted those taxes.
The ideology driving the Revolution wasn't French: Montesquieu was cited more in 1787/88 than 65-76. Rather, it was the home-grown English libertarian/republican tradition that included Milton, Harrington, Sydney, Locke, Cato's Letters, Bolingbroke, and James Burgh and focused on the nature of liberty and power and the tyranny of corruption.
That's a Revolution we can support!
May '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I don't know. I'm a Burkean as well, but also a Texan. So I respect proper authorities, but I'm also quick to say, "Come and take it."
I have both Irish and English blood (among many others). My Irish side probably would have gotten the better of me.
And my mouth would have landed me in jail before the revolution began. Y'all would break me out, right?
This thread reminds me that each of us could only have become the persons we are in the times and places to which we were born.
Edited on Feb 20, 2011 at 8:40amMay '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Aaron Miller: This thread reminds me that each of us could only have become the persons we are in the times and places to which we were born. · Feb 20 at 8:34am
Edited on Feb 20 at 08:40 am
Such was my hope. In retrospect, the Revolution was a great thing. A turning point in world history, much for the better. Placing myself at the time, however, I would've had a pamphleteering blog mocking the hell out of it.
The Irish Question has been brought up a couple of times now, but that was an occupation, not a colonization. America was populated by British immigrants, so it's not like we were being oppressed by a foreign power.
I always roll my eyes whenever the word Tyranny is used to describe the British Crown. That's like saying Terrorism occurs when you scare people. Not quite the full effect.
Jul '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
The colonists considered themselves British subjects under the Magna Carta, British Common Law, and all the rest. There was no point when, upon leaving Britain, they were expected to sign away their rights. Especially from 1775 on, Lord North, the Tory Prime Minister of Great Britain from 1770-1782, made it his personal project to bring the Colonies to heel as a royal asset. Tories were generally royalists in Britain and the Colonies, Whigs leaned toward Parliament. Tories were certainly under-represented in the Colonies, but they included the King's men, Governors and whatnot, and strong representation in the moneyed class that exchanged favors with His Majesty's Governors.
As the War developed, all royalist sympathizers were tarred with the Tory brush in America, and the revolutionaries were considered Radical Whigs from the British context. It was not just taxes that led to the confrontation, under the mercantilist system measures were taken to frustrate trade and smuggling in the colonies, resulting in severe economic hardship for business men and plantation owners as North tightened the screws. The choices became subjugation as second class citizens under North's vision or take up arms against the oppressors.
Jan '11
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I agree with everything you've said in your post, Sisyphus, save the above quote about mercantilism. The colonies thrived rather well under the mercantile system. After the war, Britain denied American access to their imperial ports, hurting American trade and economy. This became critical reason behind American's clamoring for free-trade in the post-war period. Only the real need for American goods during the French Revolutionary Wars eased England's restrictions and the hardship for American shippers.
Colonial American trade did rather well throughout the entire eighteenth-century when the mercantile system was in full-function. There was significant smuggling, of course, but legitimate mercantile trade flourished within the whole British empire. One of the reasons Colonial Americans resorted to non-importation agreements in 67 and 74/5 against the Townshed and Intolerable Acts was because of the serious determinant it would be to the Empire's economy.
May '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
I would have been a Revolutionist. Definitely a Revolutionist. And I would have hunted you and your pamphleteering mockery down to tar and feather you, Kennedy.
Sep '10
Re: Refighting the American Revolution
Given my Scottish heritage, I would have reflexively been overjoyed to support the colonies and would have burst with pride at the Scottish Enlightenment thinkers who provided the intellectual scaffolding for much of what they did.