Reaching the Muslim world
In response to some points I raised (too briefly and uncarefully) commenting on the clip Claire posted on the Main Feed of Egyptian women expressing their hatred of Israel and the west, Psuedodionysius wrote:
In line with Pope Benedict XVI I think Christians as well as those who wouldn't call themselves Christians in the West have a common interest in trying to help a burgeoning realization amongst many Muslims that the present course isn't working. I'm not saying they will be successful and I grant your premises for many Muslims (I'm a regular reader of the sewers profiled by MEMRI). If we fail to do that then, of course, the inevitable clash happens. I think you can acknowledge their failings while still trying to reach those who are reachable.
Rather than hijack Claire's post, I'd like to take the discussion up here. I hope Pseud (and others) will jump in.
I had wanted to make two points.
1) That western secularists tend to assume too easily that religious pluralism and liberal democracy can work in all societies. They seem not to see that, in truth, the values and institutions they cherish are the fruit of Judeo-Christian tradition and Scripture. They depend for their survival on that tradition and those Scriptures.
2) A realist approach to the problems in the Muslim world has to recognize and come to grips with the fact that those problems are to a large extent rooted in the religion.
I don't think that this means that a violent clash between Christianity and Islam is inevitable. But I do think there has to be a lot more direct addressing and challenging of Islam as such, e.g. its teachings on sexuality.
I also would love to see a lot more good old fashioned evangelization going on. And a lot more recognition among the secularists of how much they owe to and rely on Christianity.
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May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
I agree with point #2 but not #1. There is a kind of Western secularist who sees nothing particularly wrong with Islam; the problems, he believes, in the Middle East are caused by colonialism/imperialism, capitalism, etc. The "New Atheists" are a breath of fresh air in this respect, as they are willing to indict Islam for much of what has gone wrong and continues to go wrong in the region.
However, the truth of point #1 is something that I have not seen demonstrated though there seems to be an array of predominantly Catholic scholars who insist that it is the case. The derivation of genuine liberalism from Christian Scripture is not something that I believe can be done; in fact that I believe the two contradict each other, which I think tends to explain why the period in which liberalism experienced its climax, the Enlightenment, was accompanied by a general atrophy in the religiosity among the intellectuals.
Jun '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Katievs -- Excellent points. Judeo-Christian tradition is at odds with Islam. Why are so many dancing around this reality? Islam & Sharia must be challenged or we in the West will lose the freedoms that, as you point out, are directly attributed to our Judeo-Christian values and mores. Islam needs a reformation if it is ever to be compatible with the Western world. Millions of Muslims already practice Islam in a "reformed" way by ignoring the more odious tenets. A reformed version needs to be formalized and spread.
Michael -- Why do you think there was a general atrophy in religiosity among the intellectuals as a result of the Enlightenmnet? I would argue that the study of religion and philosophy was booming.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Some of the best, in my opinion, of the Enlightenment - Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen - were all deists. Previously, the leaders and chief intellectuals of every European nation-state, with a few exceptions, were self-professed Christians.
The Unitarian Church still publishes the Jeffersonian Bible which of course is the New Testament as edited by Jefferson where he removes the passages that concern Jesus' divinity. Christopher Hitchens' jokingly describes it as a "slender read".
Paine's deism is perhaps the most pronounced of the group, with his Age of Reason being an attack on organized religion as well as the notion of divine intervention.
Ethan Allen's Reason: The Only Oracle of Man is less well-known but no less critical of religion.
The study of both religion and philosophy were expanding - but in many cases the objective of such was to rebuke religion instead of engage in apologetics.
Edited on Jan 31, 2011 at 11:32amMay '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Nov '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Michael Labeit
Some of the best, in my opinion, of the Enlightenment - Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen - were all deists. Previously, the leaders and chief intellectuals of every European nation-state, with a few exceptions, were self-professed Christians.
But Michael, deism is basically just watered down Christianity. It couldn't have arisen in any other belief system. Without Christianity, ideas like "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" would never have come into the world. In post-Christian societies, these ideas gradually erode, and as Katie suggests, in societies without a Christian heritage, they never really gain purchase.
Jun '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Speaking of B16, this quote seems apropos:
"The Muslim world today finds itself facing an extremely urgent task that is very similar to the one that was imposed upon Christians beginning in the age of the Enlightenment, and that Vatican Council II, through long and painstaking effort, resolved concretely for the Catholic Church. [...] On the one hand, we must oppose a dictatorship of positivist reasoning that excludes God from the life of the community and from the public order, thus depriving man of his specific criteria of judgment. On the other hand, it is necessary to welcome the real achievements of Enlightenment thinking – human rights, and especially the freedom of faith and its exercise, recognizing these as elements that are also essential for the authenticity of religion. Just as in the Christian community there has been lengthy inquiry into the right attitude of faith toward these convictions – an inquiry that certainly will never be concluded definitively – so also the Islamic world, with its own tradition, stands before the great task of finding the appropriate solutions in this regard."
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Michael, my case for the dependence of all that is right and good in classical liberalism on Christianity would rely more on what Newman called "converging probabilities" than on "proof texts" from Scripture.
For instance, there is the historical fact that liberalism arose in Christian societies, among men who had been formed in and by the Christian tradition. Many of its most outstanding proponents and defenders were, and are to this day, ardent Christians.
There is a broad harmony between the basic tenets, principles and values of Christianity and the tenets, principles and values of classical liberalism.
- The dignity of the human person
- freedom of conscience
- Natural law
I find none of these in Islam.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Great quote, Joseph, thanks!
Can you tell me the source?
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Lucy Pevensie
Michael Labeit
But Michael, deism is basically just watered down Christianity.
Deism has come to refer to belief in a non-interventionist god. Hence, a deist would question, say, the Virgin Birth. Take David Hume's skepticism of the virgin birth as he argues, "Which is more likely: That the whole natural order is suspended or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?"Jefferson and Paine also questioned the pronouncements of divinity within religions.
Christianity, by contrast, requires its adherents to believe in an interventionist god. The Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Birth, the Crucifixion all suppose an interventionist god. If God does not intervene in our earthly affairs, than the essence of Christianity is false/no good.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Michael Labeit
Lucy Pevensie
Michael Labeit
But Michael, deism is basically just watered down Christianity.
Deism has come to refer to belief in a non-interventionist god...
Christianity, by contrast, requires its adherents to believe in an interventionist god. The Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Birth, the Crucifixion all suppose an interventionist god. If God does not intervene in our earthly affairs, than the essence of Christianity is false/no good. · Jan 31 at 1:39pm
Michael, none of these tenets is to the point at hand. Can you name a fundamental tenet of Christianity that is at odds with the fundaments of classical liberalism? Belief in a God who intervenes in history isn't shared by all liberals, but neither is it at odds with liberalism. (To me, the idea of an non-interventionist God, as you call it, is not terribly rational--which no doubt explains why Deism has so few adherents today--but that's stuff for another thread.)
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Michael Labeit
If God does not intervene in our earthly affairs, than the essence of Christianity is false/no good. · Jan 31 at 1:39pm
This is true. But it goes to show only that Deism and Christianity are incompatible, not that Christianity and classical liberalism are incompatible.
(I agree with Lucy that Deism is essentially a Christian heresy--a kind of halfway house between Christianity and atheism.)
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Similarly, I do not find a Christian warrant for the rights and equality under the law recognized within the Declaration of Independence. Surely, the Old Testament does not and cannot harmonize with classical liberalism, with its many rules of social conduct governing the private lives of adults. I have a very hard time believing that the same liberalism follows logically from the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus. Its a common claim among conservatives, but I don't see the connection. I don't observe a causal link between Christianity and liberalism/freedom.
Jun '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
katievs: Great quote, Joseph, thanks!
Can you tell me the source? · Jan 31 at 1:19pm
I stumbled across it in this article, it says it's from a speech to the Roman curia on December 22, 2006.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
katievs: There is a broad harmony between the basic tenets, principles and values of Christianity and the tenets, principles and values of classical liberalism.
- The dignity of the human person
- freedom of conscience
- Natural law
This is where perhaps our disagreement lies. How is it true that Christianity affirms or reinforces these 3 things? In fact, I would probably argue the contrary.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Michael Labeit
katievs: There is a broad harmony between the basic tenets, principles and values of Christianity and the tenets, principles and values of classical liberalism.
- The dignity of the human person
- freedom of conscience
- Natural law
This is where perhaps our disagreement lies. How is it true that Christianity affirms or reinforces these 3 things? In fact, I would probably argue the contrary. · Jan 31 at 2:07pm
Sounds like you're evading, Michael.
Either that, or you know practically nothing of Christianity.
The Christian doctrine of dignity of the human person is established in the first chapters of the Bible, wherein God is described as creating man "in His Image and Likeness, male and female." It's been the bedrock of the entire Judeo/Christian ethical tradition ever since. It was taken to a new level with the Incarnation, when God Himself took on human flesh within the womb of a woman. Libraries of books by Christian scholars have been dedicated to elaborating its meaning and implications; countless saints have lived declaring it, and died defending it.
Pseudodionysius can speak more authoritatively than I can of the way Natural Law and Christian tradition cohere.
Out of space.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
My tangent on deism was to demonstrate that it was more than a diluted form of Christianity. If it requires it adherents to reject the notion of Christ as a divine saviour, then it can only allow for nominal Christianity.
But there are many tenets of Christianity, I believe, that make it irreconcilable with classical liberalism. The first injunction that comes to mind is God's command to Abraham to kill his son Issac as a demonstration of his fidelity (Genesis 22:1-14). Abraham's willingness to obey God is intended as the grandeur of the story. However, if Abraham resided in a liberal society and respected it as such, he would have had to refuse the requisition from God. The liberalism of society would have compelled him to disobey an order from God. In this case, liberalism is at odds with the imperatives of the Christian God.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
The statement of Pope Benedict, quoted by Joseph above is a good indication of the seriousness with which the Church treats freedom of conscience. It's backed up by reams of scholarship and the personal witness (again) of countless Christian heroes and martyrs--including, for instance, those who died in Nazi concentration camps and the Soviet gulag for defending the rights of others.
May '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Michael Labeit
But there are many tenets of Christianity, I believe, that make it irreconcilable with classical liberalism. The first injunction that comes to mind is God's command to Abraham to kill his son Issac as a demonstration of his fidelity (Genesis 22:1-14). Abraham's willingness to obey God is intended as the grandeur of the story. However, if Abraham resided in a liberal society and respected it as such, he would have had to refuse the requisition from God. The liberalism of society would have compelled him to disobey an order from God. In this case, liberalism is at odds with the imperatives of the Christian God. · Jan 31 at 2:24pm
Michael, really now. God's highly specific test of Abraham's faith millennia before Christianity (and at a time in history when child sacrifice was normal) can hardly be considered a fundamental tenet of Christianity.
Instead of reading modern mores into ancient history, I challenge you to come up with a tenet of Christianity as it is lived and taught today that is at odds with classical liberalism as such.
Nov '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Michael Labeit
My tangent on deism was to demonstrate that it was more than a diluted form of Christianity. If it requires it adherents to reject the notion of Christ as a divine saviour, then it can only allow for nominal Christianity.
Well, yes. Watered down Christianity, or Christian heresy, or nominal Christianity--basically the same thing. But without the idea of linear (as opposed to circular) time, without the idea of a creator God who makes man in his own image, male and female, there is no philosophical warrant for the idea of a human being as having any personal dignity. Deism has not survived as a belief system, in part because it only can exist in a society where the memory of the Judaeo-Christian God lives on in people's subconscious assumptions.
Edited on Jan 31, 2011 at 2:43pmJun '10
Re: Reaching the Muslim world
Well for starters it's official Catholic teaching as affirmed at Vatican II in Dignitatis Humanae:
2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.