Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Prepping for my interview with Charles Murray later this month, I was reading his brilliant but thoroughly unnerving book, Coming Apart, when, taking a break, I came across K.C.'s post below.
Why do the rich get richer? Dee Dee Myers considers it self-evident that the rich are no smarter than the rest of us. Charles Murray disagrees--he takes no pleasure in doing so, but he disagrees:
In an age when the majority of parents in the top five centiles of cognitive ability worked as farmers, shopkeepers, blue-collar workers, and housewives--a situation that necessarily prevailed a century ago, given the occupational and education distributions during the early 1900s--relationships between the cognitive ability of parents and children had no ominous implications. Today, when the exceptionally qualified have been so efficiently drawn into the ranks of the upper-middle class, and when they are so often married to people with the same ability and background, they do....
Highly disproportionate numbers of exceptionally able children in the next generation will come from parents in the upper-middle class, and more specifically from parents who are already part of the broad elite.
Stratification by cognitive ability, reinforcing stratification by income. Murray, as I say, takes no pleasure in this.
America is coming apart at the seams--not seams of race or ethnicity but of class.
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Jun '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Peter Robinson
The answers, Colin, are "yes," "yes," and "it matters a great deal." But you'll need to read the book, or--I can't resist--at least watch my Uncommon Knowledgeinterview with Murray. · 27 minutes ago
Excellent "product placement," Peter. I will read Murray's book as soon as I finish Atlas Shrugged (really! that's what I'm (re)reading now, so this conversation is particularly timely and interesting to me). In the meantime I will watch your Uncommon Knowledge interview. But I assume that what I will watch and read lays blame for the deleterious consequences of stratification at the government's feet as a result of its horribly destructive actions vis-a-vis the lower classes.
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I'm not buying the argument. Institutional effects are becoming more pronounced in proportion to state control of the economy and society more generally. Tear down the rules requiring, for instance, a 4 year architecture or engineering degree to own a contracting firm and you will be surprised to see hard working but less credentialed people studying, learning and then acting to give their "betters" a run for their money.Statism, not genetics, is our problem. Character trumps talent unless the game is rigged so character no longer matters. (mobile phone so no formatting)
Edited on February 21, 2012 at 2:37amJun '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
It doesn't matter if Charles Murray is correct or not. The progressive narrative insists that all races are cognitively equal and all cultures are equally valid. Income inequalities must therefor be due to exterior factors like racism, colonialism, and exploitation (aka capitalism). Any attempt to even discuss Murray will be (has been) met with the usual barrage of leftist calumnies in the form of ad hominem attacks rather than criticism of his data or his conclusions. I personally find much of Murray's work compelling, but I know better than to even mention it in public. This is unfortunate because if Murray is correct, his work might provide insights into poverty and social pathology based on eugenics. As long as progressives dominate the media, the subject will remain the great heresy of leftist ideology. Verboten!
Jul '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Right on, Dr. Savage.
Mar '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
It can be tougher for the uncredentialed to draw the capital to start something, but not impossible. However, statism adds a lot of impediments to getting anything off the ground. I was in a company working on financial software when Sarbanes/Oxley got dropped on an unsuspecting populace. In terms of catching actual wrongdoers, it might be beneficial, but in terms of suppressing small companies looking to get bigger, it is a masterpiece.
Jun '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Anyone care to put Murray's thesis to the test using the Ricochet membership as the guinea pigs? The editors could do an anonymous survey with the aim of getting a Ricochet membership profile. Let's see if IQ and household income correlate right here. My bet is that the membership IQ exceeds 120 and average income comes in at the top 5% nationally. Any takers?
Edited on February 21, 2012 at 2:52amAug '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
"When you consider that seven of the ten richest counties in America are now centered in the political and media capitals we are bound to have even more disparity and less understanding in the future."
The very intelligent people I know don't go into business anymore. Why should they? They can make more money going into government -- with no risk and little effort. To go into business successfully requires qualities that are not simply a function of intelligence. I think intelligence, in and of itself, is greatly overrated both in government and business.
Jul '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Frozen Chosen:
Where we are hurting is in the lower middle class on down where the degradation of our culture has had devastating consequences. The collapse of the family makes it much more difficult for people on the lower end to improve thier conditions. · 1 hour ago
Edited 1 hour ago
Having done much to destroy the underpinnings of society by forbidding unwed mothers to marry lest they lose their government support, progressives have no one to blame but themselves for this stratification at the lower end of the scale. Yet rail against it they do.
This support includes housing, food, child support, etc., etc. According to columnist Starr Parker (who knows whereof she speaks having been in exactly that position until she decided to quit the system cold turkey), they can’t even have a bank account. Most don’t have the moxie she did to escape. But the real heartbreak (and irony) here is that the progressives are counting on this inertia. This starts at the case worker level as their salary depends on case load, to those in charge at the highest governmental levels as their power (and salary) depend on as many receiving aid as possible.
Jan '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I haven't read the book, only been exposed to parts of it on Ricochet. The bubble thickness discussion had some resonance with me, because I can see some aspects of it affecting the "health" of politics and governement in Australia now. But this "cognitive ability" thesis has a vague "eugenics" flavor, which, apart from unpleasant connotations, has always proved to be plain wrong. Every part of society will produce people of capability and genius who, provided nothing more than the opportunities of a free society and the market, will excel - and well educated and endowed dummies will blow Dad/Mum's money and sink into obscurity. My only proof of this is, well, it has always been that way. The bubble problem is something of the opposite. What happens when people of lesser ability (but inbred conviction of superiority) move preferentially almost directly into government employment and then representative status, and make a mess of it?
Jul '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Dave Carter:
Is this sort of stratification inevitable, and was it perhaps delayed at least in part by the post-WWII GI Bill that enabled a lot of people to earn a college education who otherwise would not have been able to do so? In other words, when the farmer's son returned from the war to eventually become a professor, did that bridge the divide between the classes at least for a period of time?
I think this accelerated the gap. Mostly to our benefit.
Previously, the elite (though then any college degree was elite) schools only accepted folks with the right pedigree. Certainly, the kid from "good stock" had a huge networking advantage on his comp from a less distinguished family. But that was true with or without the credential.
The game changed when broader swathes of intellectually talented (lucky in a different way) folks were allowed to compete on the same field.
Once the bright small farmer's kid was given a chance he rocketed to the top. Then he married someone in his class. Repeat, ad infinitum.
Below the surface, more importantly, there is culture.
Bourgeois norms matter.
Chasing success, rather than patronizing failure, matters.
Edited on February 21, 2012 at 3:51amFeb '12
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
This sounds like the type of thing you'd read from a eugenicist 80-100 years ago. It seems like pseudo-science that has an ugly and narrow view of human potential. Even if one were to grant some social centrifuge has separated the smart and the dim, which I don't, cognitive abilities are only one factor which contribute to success. Will, desire, heart, persistence, etc. are all incredibly important (maybe more important?) to improving one's situation and attaining one's dreams. Those aspects of character are not strictly tied to cognitive ability.
Feb '12
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
You beat me to the eugenics angle, Tony. I agree with you completely, obviously.
Jul '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
No.
It doesn't.
Two-pronged test:
1. Name me one (just one!) early twentieth century eugenicist who didn't pitch governmental limits regarding reproduction.
2. Give me one (just one!) example of Charles doing so.
Edited on February 21, 2012 at 4:04amFeb '12
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Just because he doesn't seek a governmental solution to the genetic problems he "sees" doesn't mean he doesn't have a twisted view of the innate superiority and inferiority of different types of people. That is what is at the root of eugenics, not necessarily whether one seeks to have government eliminate the weak.
Nov '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Peter Robinson
Stratification by cognitive ability...
I seem to recall -- in some education text or other -- reading that research shows that it tends towards the mean. That is, if a genius marries a genius, it does not follow that their children will be geniuses, and likewise if the parents have lower IQs. This would seem to have some relevance. But I can't remember the source...
There's also the nature vs nurture question -- in which case frankly anyone whose parents stay married has an advantage.
Jun '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I'm struggling to understand this too. My parent came from lower middle class farm families. Dad fought in WWII, thought about college, but opted to farm (and led a happy life). Yet he and my Mom insisted that their two sons go to college and made that the operating assumption of our lower middle class family. I'm a lawyer, my brother a CPA, and we created middle class families.
Why has that process broken down? [The answer may be in Murray's book]. If anything, there is more help available to someone with ambitions to move up, yet the will seems to be greatly diminished.
My gut says it's a problem of cultural decline, but it's quite mysterious and scary.
Edited on February 21, 2012 at 4:22amFeb '12
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I believe the premise Mr. Murray's book. The fact has been exacerbated by three successive generations of folks who probably did not need a 4 year bachelors degree.
My father was a machinist with an 8th grade education (he did get his GED when he returned from service). He worked for 40 years. Sent three kids to college (paid for from his checking account).
I remember when he was 48 he told me that if he could get half of his employer's part of SS and his part going forward- invest it himself he would give up everything he had already contributed and be totally responsible for himself.
My point is that my father was not MENSA smart he was raised by depression parents who taught him that hard work and taking pride in his work would be enough. It was and then some. It doesn't bother me that lawyers are marring lawyers and Ivey league grads are marring Ivey league grads. What bothers me is all of the street smart folks who could perform a skilled occupation and be well compensated for it, instead head off to Best (in) State Univ. to become a ____________.
Aug '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I'm inclined to agree.
Is it true that among the poorer kids I've tutored that fewer could become, say, doctors and lawyers than could the peers I grew up with in a nice, middle-class neighborhood? Sure.
But many of the the brighter among them go on to become paralegals and pharmacists, which I'd wager means that, barring any major family dysfunction (which is unfortunately all too common), there's no reason why their kids couldn't become doctors and lawyers.
I think that whether the rich are on average brighter than the poor affects stratification less than whether the brighter, more industrious, or more talented poor are still able to rise very far in society.
If we're getting unprecedented stratification, I'd guess it's mainly because we have burgeoning barriers to opportunity, whether in the form of credentialism, an explosion of licensing requirements, lousy public education, or (especially) family breakdown.
We have an underclass mired in pathologies not because of genetic inferiority, but because of a system that tends to reward pathologies while thwarting many attempts at self-improvement.
Jul '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
You miss the point.
Superior vs. inferior is relative in a host of circumstances.
You may be better suited than I to running 1600 meter race. Or not.
It is obviously, horribly, wrong to say that the guy trying to time the race is attempting to toss you (or I) out of the competition.
If you have actual evidence that malice is driving Charles' analysis, I suggest you provide it.
I think he is trying to make sense of complicated stuff.
Perhaps I'm wrong. If so, evidence would be useful here.
Btw, the "root of eugenics" is to control human development, starting with reproduction.
It has no point otherwise.
Though you are right that the government doesn't necessarily have a monopoly on such despicable endeavors.
Edited on February 21, 2012 at 4:37amJul '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
We have an underclass mired in pathologies not because of genetic inferiority, but because of a system that tends to reward pathologies while thwarting many attempts at self-improvement. · 14 minutes ago
Yes.
Culture is critical.
But it's foolish to ignore the fact that your garden-variety NBA power-forward isn't 5'9.