Prepping for my interview with Charles Murray later this month, I was reading his brilliant but thoroughly unnerving book, Coming Apart, when, taking a break, I came across K.C.'s post below.
Why do the rich get richer? Dee Dee Myers considers it self-evident that the rich are no smarter than the rest of us. Charles Murray disagrees--he takes no pleasure in doing so, but he disagrees:
In an age when the majority of parents in the top five centiles of cognitive ability worked as farmers, shopkeepers, blue-collar workers, and housewives--a situation that necessarily prevailed a century ago, given the occupational and education distributions during the early 1900s--relationships between the cognitive ability of parents and children had no ominous implications. Today, when the exceptionally qualified have been so efficiently drawn into the ranks of the upper-middle class, and when they are so often married to people with the same ability and background, they do....
Highly disproportionate numbers of exceptionally able children in the next generation will come from parents in the upper-middle class, and more specifically from parents who are already part of the broad elite.
Stratification by cognitive ability, reinforcing stratification by income. Murray, as I say, takes no pleasure in this.
America is coming apart at the seams--not seams of race or ethnicity but of class.
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Nov '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Occupy Hoover!
May '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
The US is becoming like Mexico and Brazil, where a light-skinned (cognitive) elite lords it over a larger number of dark-skinned folks who feel the game is rigged, but can't figure out why.
Mar '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Coming apart or maturing? Perhaps this is inevitable.
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
America, becoming more like Latin America. That's just what worries Murray.
And me.
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Jason, I'm just the messenger. Honest!
Jul '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
A system of government that hands out so much money as to be considered philanthropic is far better manipulated by the wealthy and conniving than by the poor. Dee Dee Doofus missed that connection.
Jun '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I haven't read Mr. Murray's book yet, but my first reaction is a question: hasn't it always been thus? Whether it was royalty marrying royalty, or aristocracy marrying aristocracy, or simply A-List marrying A-List, this phenomenon stretches far back into history, including American history. And yet, at least from an economic standpoint, American society has progressed steadily since its founding.
Is Mr. Murray arguing that stratification by cognitive ability is getting worse? If so, why? And more to the point, if so, so what? A rising tide will lift all boats eventually, stratification or no stratification, unless the super rich/super able are denied an opportunity by the government to reap the economic benefits of their abilities.
The only thing we can be certain of is that if the government tries to "fix" a stratification "problem," we will all be much worse off.
Aug '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Sorry Peter, I don't think this is true:
Peter Robinson:
Stratification by cognitive ability, reinforcing stratification by income. Murray, as I say, takes no pleasure in this.
One of the many data points that have been rumbling around in my brain in search of something to connect to is the many references within older fiction to the "society pages" - places in newspapers where persons of 'prominent social distinction' would publish the vagaries of their lives - announcing various things like engagements, debutante thingys, glamorous trips and general gossip of society's betters - and the near complete lack of those things today.
No, today we get gossip based on occupation - either entertainer or athlete (but I repeat myself). The social distinctions are much less prevalent. We see the crack up of Charlie Sheen - not someone I would willingly expose my children too - or the tragedy of Whitney Houston. We talk far more about the faith (and sometimes nobility) of Tim Tebow or Jeremy Lin.
I am sitting here trying to think of a prominent family of bluebloods and I can't. The Kennedy's? meh
Aug '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I think this whole rich get richer meme is overblown as it seems to focus on the uber rich like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. Those are the guys who are wealthy enough to manipulate the system in their favor but they are very few in number compared to the population as a whole.
My guess is that this country still cranks out a significant number of new millionaires who make their money in a variety of businesses and professions. And it cranks out a ton of sixfigure-aires as well.
There may be some segment of the middle class that is stagnant but that is probably due more to a changes in technology and shifts in the economy than to some permanent gulf in our culture.
Where we are hurting is in the lower middle class on down where the degradation of our culture has had devastating consequences. The collapse of the family makes it much more difficult for people on the lower end to improve thier conditions.
Edited on Feb 20 at 4:54pmRe: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
The answers, Colin, are "yes," "yes," and "it matters a great deal." But you'll need to read the book, or--I can't resist--at least watch my Uncommon Knowledge interview with Murray.
Feb '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
The game was rigged, in Mexico and Brazil- and also in the Europe where the ancestors of most Americans came from.
That's why people who were mere starving peasants in Europe arrived here penniless and died rich.
So Murray isn't describing the wonderful smartitude of America's new ruling class. He's describing the end of American exceptionalism. Bluntly, the United States is no longer a free country.
We now have roughly the same sort of ruling class as the rest of world has suffered under throughout history, and it shows in a myriad of ways. One of them is the appearance of this book. In my view it isn't as much of a scholarly tome as it is a work of hagiography devoted to praising the ruling class.
No thanks.
May '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
It seems to me that if we live in a society that does not force its citizens to remain equal in wealth, that the more intelligent people will naturally become the wealthier portion of society, since they will figure out how to make money more efficiently. This also seems to be a good thing to me because as the super smart Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs profited off their brains, all society benefited from their work. The question I have is how much of intelligence is based on genes and how much is from learning? I believe there are a few people born geniuses (not me), but a good education is also a path to intelligence and our nations failing public schools are part of the reason that poor families sometimes remain poor and less intelligent, while more wealthy families can afford to send their kids to private schools.
May '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I don't think the problem is that the smarter and wealthier tend to marry each other. They always have, and their numbers are small.
What worries me more is the degradation of public education. Decades ago, public education was more challenging, more disciplined, and hence more effective. A sound primary and secondary education was largely available to all. Today's is a far inferior product that does little to prepare kids for success.
Aug '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
From Adam Smith to James Carville.....it's always money.I wonder , but I just started the book. Exactly who is worried about how much money somebody else has ?The patient is suffering from multiple trauma, none of which involve his financial wherewithal. We have bigger fish to fry, and all the reviews of the book belabor his demographic , what does that tell you ? In an election year we should focus on utility.
Mar '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Eh, I dunno. There are plenty of dumb, drunken, unserious frat boy types in the elite colleges that got there not because they're superior intellects but rather that their parents make superior donations to the alumni fund. Meanwhile, the ranks of talented middle class achievers that come out of public colleges and become leaders are large and storied.
If anything, I think the problem is that too many of the middle class aren't doing the things necessary to stay in the middle class. They're taking school less seriously, treating marriage and families like they're burdens rather than blessings, and taking the same kind of snotty "they OWE me" attitude that the lower classes have had for decades now. Looking at my son's generation, it seems pretty obvious to me that the vices of the lower class... lots of tattoos, fatherhood without marriage, girls sleeping around, wandering aimlessly in low paying jobs while relying on parents... these things are becoming cool to the middle class, something to be emulated. The middle class... males especially... are now emulating poverty culture as fast as they can.
Oct '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Is there really a decline in mobility though? Scott Winship wrote an article in NR a couple of issues back in which he argues that we are getting no better, but also no worse, in seeing more people climb out of poverty. He cites a study that actually detected the effect of Presidents' optimism/pessimism in their speeches on consumer sentiments. It suggests that the POTUS can actually make an impact beyond policy just by the tone he sets. From the closing of the article:
May '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I know a man who's father and father-in-law were both auto workers in Michigan... He is politically well connected and his children are incredibly well-schooled (one privately) and none of them have the slightest idea of the life their grandparents lived. They simply can not connect with people who don't have a home with eight bedrooms, ten bathrooms and a pool in the backyard. When you consider that seven of the ten richest counties in America are now centered in the political and media capitals we are bound to have even more disparity and less understanding in the future.
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
I'm not even through with Levin's book, and now I'll have to put Murray's next in the stack. I hope it's on Kindle. In the meantime, let me think out loud for a moment:
Is this sort of stratification inevitable, and was it perhaps delayed at least in part by the post-WWII GI Bill that enabled a lot of people to earn a college education who otherwise would not have been able to do so? In other words, when the farmer's son returned from the war to eventually become a professor, did that bridge the divide between the classes at least for a period of time? Again, I'm just throwing this thought out, undeveloped, for better minds to shred. I'm anxious to read the book now.
May '10
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
Are the rich, in fact, getting richer? How would you measure that?
According to Kopczuk and Saez:
Top Wealth Shares in the United States, 1916-2000: Evidence from Estate Tax Returns
http://www.columbia.edu/~wk2110/bin/estate-NTJ.pdf
Specifically Figure 2, the share held by the wealthiest 1% has somewhat steadily decreased by half (!!!) over the past 100 years.
So maybe the premise is bogus. Or maybe there are wildly differing ways to measure this.
[edited, fixed bad link, added chart]
Edited on Feb 20 at 5:29pmFeb '11
Re: Re: Why Do the Rich Get Richer? Or, America, Coming Apart at the Seams
One of the main inhibitors to class mobility today is the excessive reverence paid to education-based credentials, especially those from "elite" colleges.
There are people working in factories who in an earlier age would have been promoted to department manager and maybe even eventually to plant manager, but will never get that opportunity because they lack college degrees.
There are people who *do* have college degrees working as bank branch managers who have the talent to be excellent region managers but will never get the chance because they lack MBAs.
There are people who *do* have MBAs who would be excellent investment bankers but will never get the opportunity because firms like Goldman virtually insist on an IVY League MBA.
Vast waste of human talent.