Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
May 5, 2011 at 9:17am
I was asked by a curious Turkish friend yesterday how Americans kept retired Navy SEALS from joining the mafia, and whether we found it necessary to assassinate them when their careers were over to make sure that didn't happen.
This was a sincere question. He really wanted to understand how we'd solved this problem.
How would you even begin to answer that?
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Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
jhimmi What would the average Istanbulian do if they a) saw a Turkish flag being desecrated 2) saw the Quran being desecrated? · May 5 at 7:25am
Edited on May 05 at 07:27 am
Most would be quite insulted. Some would go nuts. Some would be totally indifferent. Some would go nuts at the second, prompting horror and outrage among those who who think they're Islamist lunatics. Some would go nuts at the first, prompting horror and outrage among those who think they're fascist coup-plotters. Most people would feel bad, or shocked, or insulted; they'd complain that everyone hates Turkey and Turks have no friends but the Turks, and then they'd go back to work or listening to the football game or trying to fight traffic. See that video I posted of May Day in Turkey: You could have (symbolically) burned either in that crowd, so long as you didn't actually set anything on fire, in which case the cops would have stopped it. I suspect the real Turkey is as different from your imagination of it than his is of America.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
One more thing - this question would also apply to ex-Army, ex-Marine, even ex-cop. Some do end up turning to crime, but the vast majority don't - you could argue it's one of the primary differences between a successful democracy and a failed corruptocracy.
Why are some countries so corrupt (like Mexico and Afghanistan) that it becomes expected, part of the culture, where other countries (like Japan) there's a sense of honor that generally keeps people from cheating even when they know they can get away with it?
Aug '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Kennedy, this made my day. I'll be thinking about schmooty duty at least until lunchtime.
Aug '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.: I was asked by a curious Turkish friend yesterday how Americans kept retired Navy SEALS from joining the mafia, and whether we found it necessary to assassinate them when their careers were over to make sure that didn't happen.
How would you even begin to answer that?
I think I'd start by pointing out that our society is too open for government secrets to be kept, ah, all that secret, and if potential SEALS knew they were likely to be assassinated once their duty was over, we'd have a recruitment problem.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
jhimmi What would the average Istanbulian do if they a) saw a Turkish flag being desecrated 2) saw the Quran being desecrated? · May 5 at 7:25am
Edited on May 05 at 07:27 am
Most would be quite insulted. Some would go nuts.
The question was why don't SEALs use their skills for crime. My point was that it is possible for people to feel strong psychological and emotional attachments to things like religion and country. I have to think this sort of corruption is a problem in Turkey, or this person wouldn't have asked the question - I know most Americans assume (maybe naively?) their serviceman and police have a sense of honor, pride in their country, etc.
Rather than focusing narrowly on SEALs, it would be interesting to compare and contrast the most corrupt countries:Somalia, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Iraq, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Chad, vs. the least corrupt: Denmark, New Zealand, Singapore, Finland, Sweden, Canada, Netherlands, Australia, Switzerland, Norway.
Mar '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire -
Many good answers, here, that you can try on your friend, next time.
First, you would have to tell him to ignore Hollywood movies. Then, read the US Constitution and American military history (perhaps he could also tag onto one of VDH's tours in Greece). Then, study what training the US Military go though, and then the Seals, in particular. Then, preferably, he should meet a few in real life.
After all that, it should be no problem to explain to him why most Seals don't end up in Mafia.
And, no, I won't give up :-)
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Midget Faded Rattlesnake I think I'd start by pointing out that our society is too open for government secrets to be kept, ah, all that secret, and if potential SEALS knew they were likely to be assassinated once their duty was over, we'd have a recruitment problem. · May 5 at 8:45am
I'm not sure how persuasive that line of reasoning would be. I'm imagining being asked, "Surely they don't go into that line of work because they think it's safe?"
Jun '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
"Movies like Rambo are, of course, made by shrewd Islamist propagandists, not by Americans who come from the Judeo-Christian tradition."
They are movies. Hollywood fluff. Imaginative writers and directors coming up with crazy scenarios for action-packed entertainment. And doesn't Rambo come out on top? Nobody believes the US government is in business of assasinating its own military personnel. The moral and cultural divide between the US and Turkey is vast.
Aug '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Midget Faded Rattlesnake I think I'd start by pointing out that our society is too open for government secrets to be kept, ah, all that secret, and if potential SEALS knew they were likely to be assassinated once their duty was over, we'd have a recruitment problem. · May 5 at 8:45am
I'm not sure how persuasive that line of reasoning would be. I'm imagining being asked, "Surely they don't go into that line of work because they think it's safe?" ·
Ah, but to an American, risking your life -- even if the risk is very great -- in pursuit of your goals is very different from being assassinated once you're finished, just cuz.
We Americans prefer to live and die on our own terms. This is why more of us are afraid of plane crashes than car wrecks, even though the probability of being the casualty of a car wreck is much greater.
Aug '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I guess another way of saying this is that the American appetite for risk typically comes from a love of life, rather than indifference or hatred.
Dec '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Who exactly would be doing the assassinating? Active Special Forces personnel? I see a potential problem with that plan.
And if it is someone else, some other shadowy group, what happens to them when they retire? Who bumps them off?
And so on and so forth.
Aug '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Nickolas: Who exactly would be doing the assassinating? Active Special Forces personnel? I see a potential problem with that plan.
And if it is someone else, some other shadowy group, what happens to them when they retire? Who bumps them off?
And so on and so forth. · May 5 at 9:29am
Good point.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
We Americans prefer to live and die on our own terms. This is why more of us are afraid of plane crashes than car wrecks, even though the probability of being the casualty of a car wreck is much greater. · May 5 at 9:09am
I think this is true the world around, no? Everywhere I've ever been people are disproportionately fearful of plane crashes, given the relative risk.
Jun '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I think his question comes from the perspective that we, and Western nations in general, are the exception in the world, not the norm. We forget that sometimes. That's why these types of questions still shock us. In Russia, Special Forces going to the Mafia is a career ladder. So goes for many other places. Bribing police officers is the norm across the world, yet we Americans, Canadians, etc. blanch at even the thought of such a thing. From the perspective of Claire's friend, I find this to be a bit of an extreme question, but wholly understandable considering where a large chunk of the world comes from in their own personal and cultural experiences.
Aug '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
We Americans prefer to live and die on our own terms. This is why more of us are afraid of plane crashes than car wrecks, even though the probability of being the casualty of a car wreck is much greater. · May 5 at 9:09am
I think this is true the world around, no?
Probably it is. I just couldn't personally speak for other parts of the globe, since my globetrotting has, alas, been limited.
But my guess is that American culture is more approving of this natural human attitude than many other cultures.
Wasn't there some sort of example with pilots in WWII that showed that American soldiers found the kamikaze style so distasteful that they'd rather have more of their unit die than single out an individual soldier for death?
We seem to unusually resistant to the idea that anyone should be "sentenced" to death (that is, face near-certain death because of someone else's decision) unless they really, really "deserve" it.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
The question could be rephrased as "Is there any difference between a Navy SEAL and a mafia hit man?". If your friend understands that the Mafia is a criminal organization then he is either implying the US military and/or the US government is a criminal organization, or that there is really no such thing as right and wrong.
Either way, whether you (or he) realizes it, there is more to this question than meets the eye.
Nov '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Perhaps your friend simply watches too many movies. A year doesn't go by without Hollywood screening six or seven actioners featuring some hard-core type "going rogue" or, even more sinister, "going dark" --scenarios your Tinseltown types probably think are bound to happen, anyway, given the mindset undoubtedly shared by your average military patriot and your average wiseguy.
Apr '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
That makes sense to me. When I lived in the UAE, I was always surprised by people who believed that American movies and TV shows showed how the average Americans lived.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I feel embarrassed about my initial visceral response this morning. At least it was honest.
Perhaps that's part of the experiment - to learn things about your friend and us.
I felt an immediate need to defend the honor of the SEALS. That doesn't mean your friend's question was intended to disparage them, but it's at least interesting my view of it was that.
Looking back the mafia reference was probably my trigger. I know most of America does not share the view, but in my American sub-culture, when we hear that word, we ready ourselves for insults the speaker doesn't perceive as insulting.
Much like your friend saw no insult in asking if SEALS were susceptible to becoming criminals.
There's real symmetry here. I note some of the commenters blamed movies for the incorrect view that special forces are suscptible to crime.
That's exaclty what Italians complain about: Movies and other Pop Culture references make people believe Italians are more susceptible to crime than others. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've been asked if I'm connected, for no other reason than my name ends in a vowel.
Mar '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.:
This was a sincere question. He really wanted to understand how we'd solved this problem.
Apparently, we haven't. Didn't we have a Democrat Presidential candidate a few years ago - he retains his hat to this day, somewhere - who asked a similar question to Claire's friend?
The question is indeed a deep one, and reveals a lot about the USA, also.
Edited on May 6, 2011 at 1:43am