Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
May 5, 2011 at 9:17am
I was asked by a curious Turkish friend yesterday how Americans kept retired Navy SEALS from joining the mafia, and whether we found it necessary to assassinate them when their careers were over to make sure that didn't happen.
This was a sincere question. He really wanted to understand how we'd solved this problem.
How would you even begin to answer that?
- Comment (83)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (3)
Comments:
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Tommy De Seno: The "mafia?" Really? Time to cancel HBO in Turkey. Your friend is having trouble sorting fact from fiction.
Isn't the accepted "mafia" mythology that you have to be a full Italian to become a member? Are all our Navy Seals Italian?
I got that fictional rule from all the fictional movies about fictional Italians.
Good grief. · May 5 at 5:37am
Ah! I just understood. By "mafia," he meant organized crime, not Italians. (I'm going to be doing double-time cultural interpretation work when I show him this comment thread and try to explain the sensitivity of Italian-Americans to mafia stereotypes.)
May '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Character, schmaracter. Honor, schmonor. Duty, um, schmooty. Here's the reason:
They don't like prison.
Our law enforcement isn't corrupt. Organized crime is not a great career choice for a man of such skills. Like the NFL, you only have a few years to make your money. Unlike the NFL, it all gets confiscated at the end.
Reminds me of Putin chastising Bush for firing Dan Rather.
Speaking of rubbing out special operatives, have I mentioned that an all new season of Burn Notice begins this summer on USA, where characters are welcome?
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Tommy De Seno: This guy was sincere? I would have sincerely punched him on the chin.
Our soldiars kill out of a sense of duty, not for profit or thrill.
Tommy, why on earth would you react with hostility to someone who is sincerely curious about America? Why wouldn't you react as I did--"Isn't that an interesting question? What exactly have we done right that we don't have to worry about that? What lessons might it offer? Could Turkey apply them? Can I explain this in a helpful way?"
The assumption that there's an insult behind someone's confusion--or that the appropriate way to respond to what might be an insult is by punching someone on the chin--is hardly worthy of a self-confident nation, is it? · May 5 at 5:54am
I'm sure your friend was sincere, but he is uninformed. If I was curious about America, this is not the first question I would ask.To answer your questions: we have taken out America's #1 enemy without a loss of Amercan life; the lessons are too many for this post; yes; that's up to you.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Tommy De Seno: Claire perhaps you are being a bit permissive in your opinion that the fellow is confused.
How do you confuse a Sailor and a criminal? That's not confusion. That's an insult. · May 5 at 5:59am
Nah. Trust me. I know him. I know when he's insulting me, and this wasn't one of those times. Let me ask you this: Would you be insulted if you were asked whether our intelligence community worried about foreign espionage? Would you assume the question meant the interlocutor was confusing dedicated patriots with spies? Or would you think, given that the United States has historically had several major spy scandals, that it was a pretty reasonable question?
If someone from a foreign country looked at you in bafflement and began laughing when you asked what their military did to keep people from committing espionage and said, "Huh? Why would we worry about that? No one in our country would dream of it!"--wouldn't you be curious about what they were doing right?
Apr '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
It is a good insight. In Mexico that is very much a problem.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Well, it wasn't, but honestly it was one of the more interesting questions I've been asked lately. And you are all being exceptionally harsh. Why would you expect someone who didn't grow up in America to understand why we find it unthinkable to imagine that a Navy SEAL would turn to a life of organized crime, but not unthinkable to imagine this, say, of a member of the Kennedy family?
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Tommy De Seno: Claire perhaps you are being a bit permissive in your opinion that the fellow is confused.
How do you confuse a Sailor and a criminal? That's not confusion. That's an insult. · May 5 at 5:59am
Would you be insulted if you were asked whether our intelligence community worried about foreign espionage? Would you assume the question meant the interlocutor was confusing dedicated patriots with spies? Or would you think, given that the United States has historically had several major spy scandals, that it was a pretty reasonable question?
If someone from a foreign country looked at you in bafflement and began laughing when you asked what their military did to keep people from committing espionage and said, "Huh? Why would we worry about that? No one in our country would dream of it!"--wouldn't you be curious about what they were doing right? · May 5 at 6:16am
Please give your friend a copy of Paul Johnson's A History of the American People. Ask him to read it, and then we can have an intelitgent conversation.
May '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
In many Latin American countries I'm told, affluent citizens are caught in a bind. They hire bodyguards to avoid being kidnapped but then can never fire the bodyguard -- for fear of being kidnapped. The question makes perfect sense and is quite revealing in explaining the enormous communications divide.
If corruption and cynicism is an ordinary part of public life where you live how could you be expected to understand that the most powerful country in the world is not essentially malevolent. The left is not entirely wrong in their quest to win hearts and minds. They just don't lead with the right message.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Al Kennedy Please give your friend a copy of Paul Johnson's A History of the American People. Ask him to read it, and then we can have an intelitgent conversation. · May 5 at 6:29am
That's a very good book suggestion, actually. But I think you're wrong to suggest that one can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who doesn't know much about American history. There is nothing unintelligent about that question. There is something revealing--and tragic--about it.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Well, it wasn't, but honestly it was one of the more interesting questions I've been asked lately. And you are all being exceptionally harsh. Why would you expect someone who didn't grow up in America to understand why we find it unthinkable to imagine that a Navy SEAL would turn to a life of organized crime, but not unthinkable to imagine this, say, of a member of the Kennedy family? · May 5 at 6:25am
Claire, could a member of the "Kennedy family" become a member of the Mafia? Of course. Could a Navy Seal? Of course. I still think your freinds' question is an attempt to get to the heart of the chasm between Judeo-Christian beliefs and Islam. I spent over ten years growing up in the Middle East, and I think you and I just disagree on what is happening in Turkey today. That's what Ricochet is all about.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
It goes both ways. If you live in a country that is not particularly corrupt or cynical, you cannot understand what it means to live in one that is.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
That's a very good book suggestion, actually. But I think you're wrong to suggest that one can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who doesn't know much about American history. There is nothing unintelligent about that question. There is something revealing--and tragic--about it. · May 5 at 6:55am
It's tragic and very sad. I wish I knew how to change it,but I don't.
Jan '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
It's the 'retired' politicians that cause the most problems. Lobbyists are the real protection racket.
I suspect a retired spook has caused some mischief on occasion, uniform guys - not so much.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Al, I'm all for friendly disagreement, but what makes you think my friend's question has anything to do with Islam? How do you account for collusion between Latin American military forces and drug cartels, for example?
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I'm not sure I understand this comment--do you mean that the US and the Constitution function as a kind of secular religion to Navy SEALS? · May 5 at 5:33am
Of course that's what I'm saying - though most SEALS probably wouldn't put it that way, and for the majority of them, Christianity functions as a spiritual religion.
I'm just trying to put it in terms that even a cultural Muslim should understand. Does your friend understand why Muslims would riot and slaughter innocent bystanders when the prophet is insulted? All Muslims understand that, though they may not like it or agree with it. But, strangely, they don't understand why Americans, in this selfish capitalistic hellhole, would hold their country and its founding documents almost on par with religion.
What would the average Istanbulian do if they a) saw a Turkish flag being desecrated 2) saw the Quran being desecrated?
Edited on May 5, 2011 at 4:27pmDec '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
It sounds like your friend has watched too many Hollywood produced movies. Two overlapping memes have been common in the past several decades.
1. The bad guys employ many ex-US Special Forces types, who typically become amoral mercenaries after retirement.
2. The bad guys operate a right wing extremist cabal within the US government, and they use mindless and amoral Special Forces units to advance their nefarious agenda.
Jun '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
The rule of law is definitely a big part of it. So also is our lack of layers in class.
I am not saying there are no class levels in the States. I am saying there is movement between them. Just because you are born into a poor family doesn't mean you will HAVE to die in one. My father was the only one of 7 to graduate high school, much less college. He translated technical books from German. My German mother was bound to what she could study. Many Americans have changed their economic statuses over the generations.
Class migration is not done so much in the rest of the world. Mexico and other countries were established within the European class lines. The American Revolution (thank you especially, George Washington) moved us to a commonality.
What all this has with SEALs becoming part of the Mafia is that there is a respect for law and a respect for society. I also suspect that a good dose of believing of truth, justice, and the American way has something to do with it.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
If you don't like the SEALs as secular religion analogy, here's another.
A strong sense of national pride makes SEALs imagine themselves part of a family, called the United States. The SEALs think of themselves as the protectors of the family, and the family thinks of them that way, as well. (think big brother, or uncle). The SEALs garner much respect and admiration from the family.
Big, strong fathers and brothers could probably terrorize and steal from the smaller, weaker members of their families, but in most cases that doesn't happen.
Really, the SEALs think of each other as family, and I would imagine a SEAL would not savor the thought of disgracing himself in the eyes of other SEALs.
Edited on May 5, 2011 at 4:52pmOct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Al, I'm all for friendly disagreement, but what makes you think my friend's question has anything to do with Islam? How do you account for collusion between Latin American military forces and drug cartels, for example? · May 5 at 7:14am
Claire, I have read over 100 books on the Midle East, perhaps 25% of which dealt with Turkey. I've done my part to understand where your friend is coming from, what has he done to understand where I am coming from? Which country is he concered about in regard to the Latin American military forces and the drug cartels?
Edited on May 5, 2011 at 5:06pmJan '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
This is probably not the main motivator but someone was saying go down to a coastal town bar and 40% of the guys say they are or were SEALS. When you know you are and have been the best why would you join the Mafia. Speculation: there maybe an internal brotherhood code. Who wants all the SEALS past and present even mildly annoyed at you?