Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
May 5, 2011 at 9:17am
I was asked by a curious Turkish friend yesterday how Americans kept retired Navy SEALS from joining the mafia, and whether we found it necessary to assassinate them when their careers were over to make sure that didn't happen.
This was a sincere question. He really wanted to understand how we'd solved this problem.
How would you even begin to answer that?
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Comments:
Mar '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Ask him about the Armenian massacre - how did Turkey solve that problem?
Feb '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I think it's the other way round. It reveals alot about the US. I doubt that Turkey is atypical on this.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I'm not sure I understand your comment, David.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
You may be right. The question completely surprised me, though--it made me realize that I so completely take it for granted that this is not a big worry that I'd never asked myself why it isn't.
Mar '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Sorry, Claire - I was too cryptic!
I'm not sure I can explain it well - it's kinda like people from different cultures talking past each other, with totally different world-views, who are never gonna understand each other.
We see this in a tiny way, even here on Ricochet, with Americans not understanding the British and, quite possibly, vice versa (I am both, so you can imagine how confused I am!).
Much larger is the difference between East and West (with Turkey on the bleeding edge) - I see this in your writings on Turkey (and the Middle East, more generally). No matter how long you live there you won't understand Turkey, and they won't understand you.
This is the big problem of our time (apart from the fact that we are bankrupt).
I speak from experience, cause my wife is Iranian - so this happens every day :-)
Anyway, thanks for your writings - I always enjoy em, and often learn something. Someday I will read your book on Margaret Thatcher - people still don't even understand her!
Jan '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I'd say that anybody who survives the rigors of BUD/S training isn't motivated by personal gain: nobody goes through Hell Week to learn how to be a second-story man.
May '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Maybe it has to do with the long tradition of the rule of law that has been a feature of American life since the founding, and a non-authoritarian civil society that by and large disdains the type of corruption where a mafia could flourish.
Can we ask Paul Rahe?
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Too pessimistic. After a lot of exposure, I certainly understand Turkey better. The friend who asked this was sincerely curious, and would surely be open to a better explanation than, "Hey, just the way we are, you'll never understand us."
Nov '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Are you sure many other Turks would ask the same question?
And are we sure they don't join the Mafia?
Dec '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I would begin by perusing the conversation Kenneth posted a few days back regarding American Exceptionalism. These guys seem to embody this notion while infused with a warrior ethos creating an unparallelled lethal hand of justice. The demands placed on SEALS and special force operators in general appear so great, a commitment to a greater ideal must be necessary. Considering the relative obscurity they live in beyond their military careers--we most likely will never know the lucky s.o.b. from last weekend--this metaphysical motivator must guide them through their civilian lives as well.
Also, I understand the psychological screening process is quite extensive for special ops. If memory serves, McVeigh attempted to join while serving in the Army and was rejected.
Mar '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire: You are right, I am maybe too pessimistic.
Maybe cause I am still trying to explain to my wife that Mossad had nothing to do with 9/11, and that Bin Laden et. al. really did do it. I guess I shouldn't give up, but it seems like a long, uphill climb.
Pretty much the whole, um, Eastern World (and some on the US Left) think both that 9/11 was done by Mossad, and that Bin Laden is a hero, a martyr - they don't see that these two views are contradictory. Eastern thought is full of contradictions that would make our Western heads spin, trying to explain em.
So, if you can explain 9/11 better than I can, then you should have no problem explaining the Navy Seals to your friend - they are highly-trained professional warriors, probably the best the World has ever seen - next question?
Edited on May 5, 2011 at 10:41amOct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Perhaps his question does reflect a difference in culture. I would answer that we have no evidence that Navy Seals join the Mafia on retirement and present a problem for American society. Of course, it might happen, but we would deal with any retired Seal breaking the law under our legal system, not by assassination.
There also may be a difference between the relationship between the American military and American citizens and that of the Turkish military and Turkish citizens. Most Americans believe their military’s primary mission is to protect them, and throughout America’s entire history this has been the case. American families have many sons and daughters who are serving or have served in the military. Americans view their military with gratitude and respect, not with fear. In addition, throughout America’s entire history, its military has always been subordinate to its elected government. There have been no exceptions.
For these reasons, we don’t think this is a current or potential problem.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Aodhan: Are you sure many other Turks would ask the same question?
And are we sure they don't join the Mafia? · May 5 at 1:20am
First question: No, but I suspect quite a few would. That's obviously just one anecdote, not, you know, data. Second: Yes.
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
David Williamson: Claire: You are right, I am maybe too pessimistic.
Maybe cause I am still trying to explain to my wife that Mossad had nothing to do with 9/11, and that Bin Laden et. al. really did do it. I guess I shouldn't give up, but it seems like a long, uphill climb.
Don't give up.
Dec '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Al Kennedy:
There also may be a difference between the relationship between the American military and American citizens and that of the Turkish military and Turkish citizens. Most Americans believe their military’s primary mission is to protect them, and throughout America’s entire history this has been the case. American families have many sons and daughters who are serving or have served in the military. Americans view their military with gratitude and respect, not with fear. In addition, throughout America’s entire history, its military has always been subordinate to its elected government. There have been no exceptions.
· May 5 at 1:44am
These are all important points. Because our military takes an oath to our Constitution, something most Americans view as a virtuous charter, and not to one particular tribe, war-lord, or dogma, we trust we mostly share in the values of our service members. They are our neighbors, relatives, and co-workers. Also, we trust these highly elite operators work their way into the special forces because of their efforts and unique skill sets, not by way of tribal, political or dogmatic associations.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Mike, well said. Our military are heroes, not oppressors. Our Special Forces are simply the best of the best.
Feb '11
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Turkey's constitution sets up the military with a role of protector of the country's democracy, so I would think they are truly expected to be professional. Certainly not partisan.
Claire, is this a question that would have been asked in Turkey twenty years ago?
Edited on May 5, 2011 at 12:01pmMay '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
I have an old friend who worked for the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency). His description of the employment interviews indicated that they screen their recruit's motivations very, very carefully. I suppose the SEALs are the same.
Oct '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Israel P.
Turkey's constitution sets up the military with a role of protector of the country's democracy, so I would think they are truly expected to be professional. Certainly not partisan.
Claire, is this a question that would have been asked in Turkey twenty years ago? · May 5 at 3:01am
Edited on May 05 at 03:01 am
Claire, doesn't this illustrate a fundamental difference between the Turkish military and the American military? That is, the Turkish military's obligation to participate in Turkish domiestic politics to preserve Ataturk's constitution and vision and the American military's total absence from participation in domestic American politics. Isn't this at the root of the debate between "secular" and "non-secular" in Turkey today?
Edited on May 5, 2011 at 12:32pmDec '10
Re: Questions That Reveal a Lot About Turkey
Claire -
The straight and simple answer is many join law enforcement either at the State or Federal level, or find lucrative work as consultants,advisors, or trainers in private security firms. U.S. military code stresses loyalty, duty, honor, country not bribery, threats, and robbery...