"Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Everything about this is disgusting.
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Tuesday condemned alleged violence carried out by far-Right activists in the past week under the guise of the so-called “price tag” reprisal policy, saying the whole concept was completely unacceptable.
They're calling it "alleged" violence, but this doesn't seem like an "allegation."
He spoke in the aftermath of a number of such attacks by extreme right-wing activists, including throwing a Molotov cocktail into a Palestinian home, to protest the demolition of three structures at Gilad Farm last week.
There is no "understandable" about this. You throw a Molotov cocktail into someone's home, with no concern for the kids you might kill? You take the law into your own hands--against the policy of your elected and legitimate government? Don't expect me to refrain from calling you a terrorist.
Lock them up, Netanyahu, and throw away the key.
- Comment (20)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (2)
Comments :
Feb '11
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
May we find out who they are first? Accusations of this sort have proven false before.
And before someone says "they haven't identified the murderers of the Fogel family, so how can you say..." let me repeat, accusations of this sort have proven false before.
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Israel P.: May we find out who they are first? Accusations of this sort have proven false before.
And before someone says "they haven't identified the murderers of the Fogel family, so how can you say..." let me repeat, accusations of this sort have proven false before. · Mar 24 at 4:15am
They have, but does it make any sense for Netanyahu to condemn a crime about which there's serious doubt? It's utterly illogical that he would say this if there was any question about it--has that ever happened before? (Serious question, not rhetorical.)
May '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
I agree, I want to see more information before jumping to a conclusion on this particular case.
In the general case, I find that when the government does not act to defend its people, at some point, people will take the law into their own hands. This tends to spin out of control. We had this in America with the murder of the immigrant family.
Israel has yet to put a permanent stop to terrorist raids on their nation. At some point, is it any surprise that citizens act out of rage? I am surprised there is not even more of this sort of thing, to be honest.
I think the time for Israel to make *any* concession is over. Every attack should be met by the government with an overwhelming response that they don't back down on. Metaphorically, we need more heads on pikes.
Feb '11
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
It's utterly illogical that he would say this if there was any question about it--has that ever happened before? (Serious question, not rhetorical.) · Mar 24 at 4:24am
Let's start with Muhammed al-Dura. The IDF and the government were all over themselves apologizing before the whole incident was proven to have been a fraud.
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Bryan G. Stephens: I agree, I want to see more information before jumping to a conclusion on this particular case.
In the general case, I find that when the government does not act to defend its people, at some point, people will take the law into their own hands.
In a democracy, you argue with the government by voting it out. Israelis have a chance at every election to vote in a government that "puts a permanent stop to terrorist raids on their nation." They elected the government they did--one that without any doubt in my mind takes "acting to defend its people" seriously. We lock up people who commit vigilante crimes in America; they lock them up in Israel; and that is just how it should be.
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Israel P.
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
It's utterly illogical that he would say this if there was any question about it--has that ever happened before? (Serious question, not rhetorical.) · Mar 24 at 4:24am
Let's start with Muhammed al-Dura. The IDF and the government were all over themselves apologizing before the whole incident was proven to have been a fraud. · Mar 24 at 4:36am
That's very true. In this case, however, the source of the reporting is Israeli authorities. Do you seriously think--again, not a rhetorical question--that at a moment like this, Netanyahu would denounce this if he were in doubt that it happened? Judith (if you're on this thread), does that seem plausible to you?
Feb '11
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Israel P.
Let's start with Muhammed al-Dura. The IDF and the government were all over themselves apologizing before the whole incident was proven to have been a fraud. · Mar 24 at 4:36am
That's very true. In this case, however, the source of the reporting is Israeli authorities. Do you seriously think--again, not a rhetorical question--that at a moment like this, Netanyahu would denounce this if he were in doubt that it happened? Judith (if you're on this thread), does that seem plausible to you? · Mar 24 at 4:54am
How certain do you require him to be (according to his own feeling of certainly, not absolute fact) before denouncing a whole s wath of society? 80% Is 60% good enough? 40%?
Google "Nochum Korman." Everyone was sure of his guilt, until they weren't.
Another case, in September 1995 an Arab killed another Arab near Halhul and an Israeli government agent claimed credit on behalf of a fictition right-wing organization in order to smear his fellow Jews. THAT WAS HIS JOB!
That's off the top of my head. Excuse my cynicism.
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Israel P.
How certain do you require him to be (according to his own feeling of certainly, not absolute fact) before denouncing a whole s wath of society? 80% Is 60% good enough? 40%?
Do you mean the condemnation he issued in the link I provided? Or has there been a separate condemnation? Because as it was reported in the Jerusalem Post--if that's a complete account of what he said--it wasn't a condemnation of a whole swath of society, unless you're arguing that a whole swath of society favors taking the law into its own hands. The condemnation was of those who take the law into their own hands. But again--I am not offering a rhetorical argument--correct me if he's said something else that has not been reported in English.
Feb '11
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
The condemnation was of those who take the law into their own hands. But again--I am not offering a rhetorical argument--correct me if he's said something else that has not been reported in English. · Mar 24 at 5:18am
The Jerusalem Post article that you linked sounds like he is criticising more than just a couple of unidentified individuals. Some of that is the Post's style, but they build on his own words.
In between reading Ricochet. I am trying to get some work done and am not glued to the radio or local websites and cannot tell you what else is being said.
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Israel P.
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Israel P.
How certain do you require him to be (according to his own feeling of certainly, not absolute fact) before denouncing a whole s wath of society?
The serious answer to "how certain do I require him to be" about this before denouncing it is: I don't think "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the right standard here. I'd say "preponderance of evidence" is right. That in itself is a bit legalistic, but I don't think he should wait until a full trial before speaking out.
I don't really see Netanyahu as a credulous fool--do you?
Feb '11
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
I have not seen evidence. Maybe he has. So far it looks like the right-wingers who are responsible for Congresswoman Giffords.
I'll leave your last question as rhetorical, though I am tempted to offer "knave" as an alternative. (I did vote for the man's party once and felt played for the fool myself.)
May '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Stipulating for the sake of argument that it is true, it was done by "right wing activists."
People will only allow themselves to be pushed so far, some less than others. Then they push back.
I'm not arguing that this is right, only that it is.
Dec '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
...They elected the government they did--one that without any doubt in my mind takes "acting to defend its people" seriously....
This is becoming harder and harder to believe. If this were really the case, Israel would have stopped the concessions years ago and Hamas have been wiped off the face of the map.
In my very limited understanding, it seems like Israel is moved more by concerns/fears of world opinion, than for concern of her people. Why else would Israel react with such tepid and self defeating timidity time and time again?
May '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
In a democracy, you argue with the government by voting it out. Israelis have a chance at every election to vote in a government that "puts a permanent stop to terrorist raids on their nation." They elected the government they did--one that without any doubt in my mind takes "acting to defend its people" seriously. We lock up people who commit vigilante crimes in America; they lock them up in Israel; and that is just how it should be. · Mar 24 at 4:42am
When people think that the system no longer works for them, they will stop living within that system. I am not defending vigilante crimes, I am pointing out that they are a natural and obvious reaction.
This sort of terror attack is a form of raid. You defend best against a raiding enemy by attacking his secure base. If he does not have a secure base, he cannot raid you. The Romans would march into the hinterlands and destroy the crops of the raiders.
It is hard to see how anyone in Palestine can be called "innocent" when they celebrate these attacks. (Ed for clarification of the point)
Edited on Mar 24, 2011 at 8:43amMay '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
This kind of reminds me of the "bully victim fights back" video. No one likes what the kid being bullied did, but everyone understands it.
The problem here is that the leadership of the "bully" doesn't care if some if it's citizens get killed, so fighting back in this way will have no effect. Heck, this kind of thing is playing into the hands of the anti-Israel terrorists.
If the vigilante managed to get a Molotov cocktail into the home of a Hamas leader, I would be among those cheering.
Dec '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
The issue of "price tag" retaliation isn't about Palestinian terror but rather about some militant settlers retaliating for Israeli police action against settlers, including the removal of illegal settlements. The JPost article mentions a police operation in which the police fired plastic bullets at settlers. Of course, the proper response is for the settlers to lodge complaints against the police and move for legislation in the Knesset to outlaw the use of plastic bullets, not attack Palestinian homes.
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
No, everyone does not understand throwing a Molotov cocktail into someone's house.
Jun '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
To stem this sort of tit for tat governmental retribution must be swift and severe, if not savage. If the people are to cede a monopoly on violence to their governments then the government damn well better act. Living in safety as we do gives us the right to elevate a debate that should never stray, not even for a second, from the visceral. Time enough for mea culpas while the dust and the ashes are settling on the bodied of the perpetrators. And, yes, mistakes will be made, but we all live by the luck of the draw, just ask the surviving Fogel kids.
Dec '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
No, everyone does not understand throwing a Molotov cocktail into someone's house. · Mar 24 at 10:26am
Especially not if the someone in the house is not the actual target of the arsonist's anger: reprisals against Palestinians for affronts caused by the Israeli police is a weird policy in the first place, over and above the inherent evil of tossing Molotov cocktails.
Dec '10
Re: "Price Tag" Violence: Disgusting
As you know, Claire, the concept of "lock 'em up and throw away the key" has no meaning in Israel. Palestinian terrorists, for example, are only locked up until Hamas or Hezbollah manages to kidnap an IDF soldier or two -- or merely kill them and take their corpses hostage -- and waits for Israel to elect a government feckless enough to trade those terrorists for the hostages.