Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Leave it to this Marine officer to make her case against women in combat in the Marine Corps Gazette:
Which once again leads me, as a ground combat-experienced female Marine Corps officer, to ask, what are we trying to accomplish by attempting to fully integrate women into the infantry? For those who dictate policy, changing the current restrictions associated with women in the infantry may not seem significant to the way the Marine Corps operates. I vehemently disagree; this potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world’s most lethal fighting force. In the end, for DACOWITS and any other individual or organization looking to increase opportunities for female Marines, I applaud your efforts and say thank you. However, for the long-term health of our female Marines, the Marine Corps, and U.S. national security, steer clear of the Marine infantry community when calling for more opportunities for females. Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda.
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Jan '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Ooh Rah!
Jun '12
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
This Army officer salutes that Marine!
Mar '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Semper Fi..... from the Army
Oct '10
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
The link is bad.
May '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
She will be Hackworthed shortly.
Nov '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Semper Fi!
Jun '10
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Women in combat is one of the issues where the non-religious left gets to deny that evolution ever happened. A few hundred thousand years of chasing down and killing large game animals, in a gender-based way, has an effect on the human body. Maybe we should take advantage of that gender difference, and not try to deny that it exists.
Edited on July 24, 2012 at 10:47pmMar '12
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Semper Fi from a combat Marine. I love women and don't for a minute believe that they belong on the front lines behind a rifle or a machine gun. Preparing them as though they might have to face combat in the new era is a good idea. Having male Marines worry about female Marines is a bad idea.
For those who think otherwise, you might examine the German army at the end of WWII or the Israeli army in its earliest versions. Men dying to save women, who died anyway. It is a very bad idea.
Jul '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
I don't think this is an either-or situation. There are women in my life that could kick my butt physically - think Vasquez from the "Aliens" flick. You can't say that you wouldn't want a bunch of them on a squad.
If they can meet the requirements of a Marine, they should be a Marine. No dumbing down the standards, but if they meet them, why not?
Jul '12
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
corrected link is http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal
Dec '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
EstoniaKat: I don't think this is an either-or situation. There are women in my life that could kick my butt physically - think Vasquez from the "Aliens" flick. You can't say that you wouldn't want a bunch of them on a squad.
If they can meet the requirements of a Marine, they should be a Marine. No dumbing down the standards, but if they meet them, why not? · 4 minutes ago
Just because a particular woman is stronger than a particular man doesn't change the fundamental problem with women in combat.
That problem, as identified by Daniel Todd, is that - during threatening situations - men naturally behave differently towards women than they do towards men. To believe otherwise is to deny several thousand years of recorded history.
Jul '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Last Outpost on the Right
EstoniaKat: I don't think this is an either-or situation. There are women in my life that could kick my butt physically - think Vasquez from the "Aliens" flick. You can't say that you wouldn't want a bunch of them on a squad.
If they can meet the requirements of a Marine, they should be a Marine. No dumbing down the standards, but if they meet them, why not? · 4 minutes ago
Just because aparticularwoman is stronger than a particular man doesn't change the fundamental problem with women in combat.
That problem, as identified by Daniel Todd, is that - during threatening situations - men naturally behave differently towards women than they do towards men. To believe otherwise is to deny several thousand years of recorded history. · 0 minutes ago
I don't buy that, sorry. And I would reference Soviet snipers during World War 2 as exhibit A. Do you know how many Nazis they killed, under what conditions, working in the worst conditions imaginable?
All things being equal and women meeting the standards, you are arguing that men are still worrying in a firefight about what junk people are carrying?
Dec '10
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
EstoniaKat
Last Outpost on the Right
Just because aparticularwoman is stronger than a particular man doesn't change the fundamental problem with women in combat.
That problem, as identified by Daniel Todd, is that - during threatening situations - men naturally behave differently towards women than they do towards men. To believe otherwise is to deny several thousand years of recorded history.
I don't buy that, sorry. And I would reference Soviet snipers during World War 2 as exhibit A. Do you know how many Nazis they killed, under what conditions, working in the worst conditions imaginable?
All things being equal and women meeting the standards, you are arguing that men are still worrying in a firefight about what junk people are carrying? ·
One question... why didn't any girlfriends throw themselves over their boyfriends in the Aurora massacre?
And maintaining standards is not how the purveyors of gender equality operate. I do not believe the strongest woman in the Marine Corps is as strong as the average male Marine. I don't believe it. She'll have to prove it. And even if she proves she's adequately strong, why should the infantry be compromised? To satisfy her ego?
Jun '10
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
EstoniaKat
Last Outpost on the Right
Just because aparticularwoman is stronger than a particular man doesn't change the fundamental problem with women in combat.
That problem, as identified by Daniel Todd, is that - during threatening situations - men naturally behave differently towards women than they do towards men. To believe otherwise is to deny several thousand years of recorded history.
I don't buy that, sorry. And I would reference Soviet snipers during World War 2 as exhibit A. Do you know how many Nazis they killed, under what conditions, working in the worst conditions imaginable?
All things being equal and women meeting the standards, you are arguing that men are still worrying in a firefight about what junk people are carrying?
Combat is not usually as straightforward as finding far away targets and pulling the trigger. Combat is anticipating what's ahead, picking certain soldiers to do certain things. It's controlling your fear, your adrenalin, and not letting them control you. In some places, it's understanding how the evil mind works, and adapting. Is that nine-year-old kid running up to you with a bomb on his back? In some bad situations, yes, he is.
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
We live in a world in which it takes guts to say the obvious.
Mar '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Been there, done that, discovered that they do indeed dumb down the standards. They have to. It's human nature. In my case, I was a cop.
If the same standards are maintained, the disparity between male and female participation will be absolutely enormous. How enormous I'll get to in another comment.
After a few years of women being accepted into combat roles, the massive under-representation of women will be taken as evidence of systemic discrimination. New leaders will be appointed who will vow to even up the gender balance.
There are only two ways to do that: have lower standards for women, or lower standards for all.
Mar '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
Now this is tricky: a combat soldier is not a regular man. Aside from certain character traits which are hard to measure, he has certain physical capabilities. And these are not those of the average man!
Let us say that your combat soldier is in the top 5% of men physically in his age cohort in, say, upper body strength. (A recent Australian Victoria Cross recipient was so awarded for lifting, carrying under fire and saving a wounded Afghan interpreter.)
How many women can match the top 5% of men in body strength? Only 1, for every 140,000 men. For lower body strength the ratio narrows to 1:600.
You can even up the figures a little by reducing standards. Change from the top 5% to the top 10% and the ratios become 1:15,000 and 1:170 respectively.
The political pressure to change that would be immense and, eventually, may well be irresistible.
Edited on July 25, 2012 at 12:19amDec '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
@EstoniaKat
Yes. That is precisely what I'm arguing.
Men instinctively protect the women with whom they are partnered, irrespective of whether it's a good or bad idea or not. And yes, heterosexual men and women (I can't believe I need the qualifier .. sheesh) are pretty likely to hook up when on overnight patrols ... tell me that won't compromise operational readiness. So partner can mean in the same squad, same tank, or more.
There will always be exceptions to this. But they are exceptions.
May '11
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
I have been in the Marines since 1985 and I have never seen a woman Marine able to keep up with the men over long distances and carrying a load.
.
And the truth is that Marines are not super human. They are just average men who are inculcated with a mindset to work as a team to create organized violence. Any healthy man can be a Marine if he wants to be one badly enough.
Mar '12
Re: Political Incorrectness, Marine Corps Style
I haven't seen the female fireman who goes up the ladder to lift a heavy man or woman and carry that person out a window at a fire scene.
I haven't see the NBA, professional hockey, or professional baseball draft and play women. Why might that be? Certainly the NFL, the NBA, the NHL and professional baseball would play women if they could find women who could compete at that level. Those women don't exist.
At the military academies, physical standards were lowered to permit women to compete in those academies. Women do many things extremely well, but murderous competition is not part of their make-up, mentally or physically. Forcing men to pretend that the women next to them don't need to be protected on the field of battle is impossible.
I expected the Marines next to me to do whatever they had to do. They expected the same of me. We were all men and if one of us dropped, yelling for a corpsman was expected, and then we would go on. For my wife or daughter? I'd stop on the spot and die with them.