You've probably heard some GOPers in the Pennsylvania legislature are hoping to apportion the state's electors by congressional district. If this were to happen nationwide, it would heavily favor Republican presidential contenders as it would add more weight to rural and suburban districts, which tend to vote Republican. Apparently, it is legally unstoppable because it is fully constitutional and even in practice already in Maine and Nebraska. It even supports an aspect of the original intent of the electoral college, that is, putting a finger on the scale to balance the power of large, populous states.
Allahpundit has a nice round-up in Quotes of the Day at Hot Air.
As badly as I want Republicans to win the presidency in 2012, I'm not sure I'm for this EGP. First, there is the problem of changing the rules while the game is in play, which tends to be a leftist tactic. We should not become what we hate in order to win.
But even more worrisome to me is the underground movement to subvert the electoral college altogether by getting states to sign on to dedicating their electoral votes based on the outcome of the national popular vote. I can see states rushing to sign this agreement to counteract what looks like an unfair abuse of the rules. Defending the electoral college is already a challenge, even with some Republicans I know, due to the subtlety of of the arguments.
What's your opinion?
UPDATE: As I understand it, the petition being circulated to the states to nullify the electoral college in favor of direct democracy (national popular vote) isn't constitutional , but it isn't unconstitutional either because, as Tom Paine points out in the comments, the constitution allows states to decide how electoral votes are allocated. It's a loophole.
- Comment (28)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (2)
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
Comments :
Aug '11
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
The Constitution allows each state to determine how electoral college votes are allocated. And there's ample precedent for this, in Nebraska and Maine.
Dec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
I'm not against apportionment of EC votes on its face. Each state can decide for itself how to go about the task of assigning its delegates. This is the heart of federalism. From a personal stand point, it would be nice for Seattle to not determine how I collectively vote for the president. All that being said, the process would have to be transparent and truly reflect the will of the people of the state if a change to the current system was to be made. As far as the national popular vote movement is concerned, I think it's a steaming pile of [explitive] that attempts to undermine the spirit and intent of the constitution while narrowly remaining within the letter of the law.
Dec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Exactly. But I've even heard Republicans arguing for direct democracy. Is the Pennsylvania plan opening the door? Conservatives will have yet another issue to 'splain to the voters and we all know how good we are at persuasion!
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
Edited on Sep 15, 2011 at 1:44pmDec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
I'm not so sure this is really a gateway to direct democracy. I guess if I still lived in Texas I would be against such a move. There my R vote would be surplus. Living in Washington, however, I find myself in the minority almost exclusively, so the idea of my vote having any measurable effect on the EC is very tempting. On purely Constitutional grounds I cannot fault any state that wants to apportion its votes. It's a little more direct form of democracy, but it retains that barrier between the unruly mob and the highest office in the land.
Dec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Now that I've seen the update...If what's going on is the national popular vote petition, then I give it a resounding hell no. If it is simply apportionment of EC votes like Nebraska and Maine do it I have no problem.
Mar '11
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
KP: the PA proposal is the same as the system already in place in NE and ME.
I'm skeptical of these congressional district allocations because it ends up putting even more weight on the redistricting process. Under this proposal, gerrymandering districts could affect not only the composition of Congress, but also the election of the President.
The reallocation of electors might sound good now for a swing state like Pennsylvania, but wait until the next census comes around and Democrats control the state legislature....
Dec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Mendel: KP: the PA proposal is the same as the system already in place in NE and ME.
I'm skeptical of these congressional district allocations because it ends up putting even more weight on the redistricting process. Under this proposal, gerrymandering districts could affect not only the composition of Congress, but also the election of the President.
The reallocation of electors might sound good now for a swing state like Pennsylvania, but wait until the next census comes around and Democrats control the state legislature.... · Sep 15 at 2:15pm
Very valid point.
Sep '11
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
I live in Pennsylvania, and have advocated for this idea for years (including when I was a Republican party official).
It's a good idea, especially in Pennsylvania.
This isn't a Republican vs. Democrat thing (the state GOP chairman is opposed): this is a small town vs. Philadelphia thing. Win big in the city of Philadelphia and the five surrounding counties, make a respectable showing in Pittsburgh, and you're pretty much on your way to 50.1% of the vote--and all of the electoral votes. (This is the standard Democrat strategy for statewide races.)
Revert to the original rules for apportioning electors, and now you have to campaign across the state. Yes--you can win a bunch of votes in Philly; but you have to campaign in Allentown, and Wilkes-Barre, and Johnstown, and Erie; places the pols routinely ignore.
And in a closely fought presidential race, most districts in Pennsylvania will be in play. We'll get more attention than Iowa caucus voters.
I think this is a terrific idea.
May '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Allocating by district, I like that idea.
Much difference than allocating your state's votes to the national popular vote winner. At least by district, the district votes for who it voted for. The other idea, the state could throw its votes to who someone else voted for.
Dec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
I was on the run when I posted this, so I apologize for not making my concerns clearer. I agree the apportionment of electoral votes by congressional district is in the spirit of the design of the electoral college and has the advantages John Murdoch articulates. That it wildly favors the GOP in presidential politics is no small thing either (that's the evil genius part).
I'm worried that a national movement under GOP controlled legislatures and governors will light a fire under the national popular vote effort, which has managed to pass bills in enough blue states to be half way toward their goal of having enough states pass legislation to get to 270 electoral votes, thereby nullifying the purpose of the electoral college, but doing it within constitutional limits (states get to apportion as they choose). See King Prawn's link above.
Maybe the Pennsylvania solution is the best way to counteract the npv movement? The question is, who would cross the finish line first? Has anyone run the numbers?
Nov '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Don't agree that this idea is in keeping with the founders' vision. They wanted to empower the states as a balance against federal tyranny. Electoral votes belong to individual states, not to patches of ground that change their boundaries every ten years.
I HATE this idea.
Edited on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:24pmAug '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
I'm not sure how you allocate electoral votes on the basis of congressional representation, because you have two left over per state.
That said, the worse crusade, which is popular on the left, to nullify the entire electoral system by allocating them based on the popular vote in the entire country, seems unconstitutional to me. Article II section 1 says "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors...". So it would still seem to require that the state's electors be chosen by the state, and not by other states. You could also probably make some Constitutional trouble with Article IV section 4: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government". That would arguably preclude a state giving away part of its sovereignty to other states. After all, you otherwise could wind up with a state in which a solid majority favors candidate A, choosing a majority of electors for candidate B, because that's what the rest of the country chose.
Edited on Sep 15, 2011 at 8:51pmMar '11
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Starve the Beast: Don't agree that this idea is in keeping with the founders' vision. They wanted to empower the states as a balance against federal tyranny. Electoral votes belong to individual states, not to patches of ground that change their boundaries every ten years.
I HATE this idea. · Sep 15 at 8:12pm
Edited on Sep 15 at 08:24 pm
I agree! Try to imagine Florida 2000 x 437 congressional districts, every purple district would be in play, not to mention the electors that represent the 100 senators. It opens the door for an incredible amount of mischief making.
Mar '11
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Would this necessarily happen? The majority of congressional districts are notorious for being completely non-competitive. In rural PA districts where McCain won by 15% or more in 2008, this new allocation plan might perversely disincentive the candidates from visiting them, if they feel these districts are lopsided and the outcome to be a foregone conclusion.
In any winner-take-all system, the candidates spend the most time campaigning in voting districts with fairly equal numbers of voters from each party. By allocating the electoral votes to each district, you might just turn a swing state into a collection of non-swingable one-party fiefdoms, making it a relative waste of the candidates' time to campaign there.
Mar '11
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Those two electors are "bonus" votes which would be allocated to the winner of the state popular vote. Just to keep the system "balanced."
Dec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
It's understandable why the Left wants to change things. It's what they do. But, conservatives are supposed to be for change when change is necessary. What's broke about the current electoral college? For the popular vote advocates, it works pretty much all the time. By giving a proportionally larger vote to smaller states, it makes presidential candidates have to appeal to the broad spectrum of people. A direct vote would only necessitate appealing to the interests of the urban majority. While it is true that only a few states are in play in any one election, we do see changes over time. In a popular vote scheme, it is only the independents who are in play, the least informed segment of the citizenry. If you think elections are too expensive now, wait till you need to campaign in all 50 states or set up organizations in all 435 Congressional districts. And, possibly most importantly, regardless of the closeness of the popular vote, the electoral college gives a more lopsided victory to the winner, which strengthens his mandate.
Dec '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
It's understandable why the Left wants to change things. It's what they do. But, conservatives are supposed to be for change when change is necessary. What's broke about the current electoral college? For the popular vote advocates, it works pretty much all the time. By giving a proportionally larger vote to smaller states, it makes presidential candidates have to appeal to the broad spectrum of people. A direct vote would only necessitate appealing to the interests of the urban majority. While it is true that only a few states are in play in any one election, we do see changes over time. In a popular vote scheme, it is only the independents who are in play, the least informed segment of the citizenry. If you think elections are too expensive now, wait till you need to campaign in all 50 states or set up organizations in all 435 Congressional districts. And, possibly most importantly, regardless of the closeness of the popular vote, the electoral college gives a more lopsided victory to the winner, which strengthens his mandate.
Jun '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
If the goal is to empower the states, then the electors ought to be nominated by the Governor and confirmed by the state Senate. I don't think the founders envisioned a nationwide election, regardless of how you count the votes.
Jan '11
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
The main reason I'd consider it is because of states like Pennsylvania, where I grew up. The cities vote overwhelmingly Democrat, and everyone else is a Republican, as John Murdoch said above. But the people in the cities aren't voting from a standing start, so to speak. Between the unions and the machines, city Democrats have a lock on the election process.
In Pennsylvania, most of the state votes Republican because they want to; in the city, they vote Democrat because they have little choice.
All things being equal, I'd prefer the electoral college because it does force candidates to go out and compete in every state. But for every system, there are clever people who try to beat the system, and the Democrats and their unions/machines have done that. Instead of competing in every state, machine politics have locked in red and blue states, and now the election is decided by a handful of swing states. Larry Sabato said there were only 7 states that would decide the election.
I've lived in Maryland since 1986. My vote hasn't counted since then.
Jun '10
Re: Pennsylvania's Move to Allocate Electoral Votes by Congressional District: GOP Evil Genius Plan or Electoral College Death Knell?
Alan Weick is right regarding empowering the smaller states. I think that, as this goes along, the smaller states will learn that they will have to offer the whole state's votes to candidates if they want to have some input to the campaigning. I predict that they will do this because this is not a left-right issue (as said above) it is a big-small issue. Really, this is what the founders wanted here -- they wanted every state to be independent, strong and represented.