Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
As reported on the FoxNews website:
"...nearly 90 professors and administrators connected to the Jesuit-founded school in Washington, D.C., has sent Ryan, R-Wis., a letter saying he’s misused Catholic doctrine to support his deficit-reducing, GOP House budget."
Read the entire article here.
And I think a more interesting question is whether the objections raised by the Georgetown Nearly 90 to Ryan's side references that his budget supports the Catholic doctrine of subsidiarity (moving welfare, food and other safety net programs to the more local level) reveal that their concept of the role of the federal government is closer to Wilsonian Progressivism than the principles on which the nation was founded? This remark may have revealed their underlying ideological position (emphasis mine):
"...we would be remiss … if we did not challenge your continuing misuse of Catholic teaching to defend a budget plan that decimates food programs for struggling families, radically weakens protections for the elderly and sick and gives more tax breaks to the wealthiest few."
And if the federal government is responsible for caring for the poor and dispossessed rather than private individuals and charitable institutions then hasn't the state usurped the opportunity for individuals to act ethically and benevolently on their own or through their charitable or religious institutions?
Finally, Is the position of the Georgetown Nearly 90 less Catholic than they would like to think for the very reason stated in the preceding paragraph? Are all charitable efforts supposed to rendered onto Caesar? If not, then perhaps a certain percentage? If so, what percent?
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Jan '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Brian Watt
If a priest is complicit in aiding and abetting brutal Marxist dictators like the Castro brothers or Hugo Chavez then yes, their actions, their complicit behavior may be indeed be considered immoral and at odds with Catholic teaching, wouldn't you agree?
You're making associations. So let's be careful and make distinctions.
Yes, knowingly abetting dictators is at odds with Catholic teaching. OK, how do we get from there to a bunch of professors criticizing Paul Ryan?
Sep '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
I interrupt this thread for a snippet of a piece of satire from Fr Z's blog, written by one Pope Genghis PP I
Edited on April 26, 2012 at 4:08pmSep '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
...cont'd
Dec '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville: ...
But here’s a more general question … is being politically liberal … immoral? Is anyone here willing to say that your politics measures your morality, so that being liberal means being immoral? ...
I think it is sinful, yes. It's succumbing to the temptation of pleasurable feelings (mostly taking pleasure in one's "virtue," aka "pride"). Because objectively, demonstrably, liberalism leads to greater human suffering -- a culture of death. It's also completely un-self-aware that it isn't about love of neighbor, but rather love of power over one's neighbor -- it's about compulsion. This spiritual blindness is what terrifies me for and about my liberal friends. They haven't a clue.
The only reason we question whether it is immoral or not to be liberal is liberals have protected themselves from criticism behind a shield of good intentions. Did you know Saint Bernard of Clairvaux originated the phrase as, "hell [itself] is paved with good intentions," not the road to hell?
I've come to accept that the serpent is in the sanctuary, but it still startles me when I find it among ordinary Catholics, and especially priests. Old Screwtape knows human nature.
Jun '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville: ...
What's going on in this story?
Ninety liberals wrote a letter. Big deal.
With all due respect, Brian, you've taken a press release-turned-media report, and you're "asking questions" about what it all might mean. I don't think it means much of anything. Some liberals deny that Ryan's budget exhibits the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. Big deal.
It's one more manufactured press release. It represents a liberal point of view. Who cares?
Unfortunately, K.C., at a time when Catholics, particularly Catholic bishops are challenging the Obama administration on birth control and abortion, a comment from a bishop or two that the Georgetown Nearly 90 don't represent the views of the Church and may in fact be wrong - might be refreshing to hear. My concern is not so much with the pronouncement of the Georgetown contingent (it is sadly too common), or the media coverage of it, but rather the lack of outrage from more conservative Catholics to challenge the Marxist influence within their ranks. I believe Prof. Rahe touched on this in greater detail some months ago.
Jun '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville
Brian Watt
If a priest is complicit in aiding and abetting brutal Marxist dictators like the Castro brothers or Hugo Chavez then yes, their actions, their complicit behavior may be indeed be considered immoral and at odds with Catholic teaching, wouldn't you agree?
You're making associations. So let's be careful and make distinctions.
Yes, knowingly abetting dictators is at odds with Catholic teaching. OK, how do we get from there to a bunch of professors criticizing Paul Ryan? · 11 minutes ago
I think you need to address specifically what these "bunch of professors" are expressing and whether they are accurate in their interpretation that Ryan in misguided in his understanding of Catholic doctrine.
The news item is indicative that not enough Catholics step up to "smack" down those who presume to speak from authority on Catholic doctrine when they are wrong and in fact pushing a Marxist agenda or a non-Catholic doctrine of collective salvation.
Jun '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville
Brian Watt
If a priest is complicit in aiding and abetting brutal Marxist dictators like the Castro brothers or Hugo Chavez then yes, their actions, their complicit behavior may be indeed be considered immoral and at odds with Catholic teaching, wouldn't you agree?
You're making associations. So let's be careful and make distinctions.
Yes, knowingly abetting dictators is at odds with Catholic teaching. OK, how do we get from there to a bunch of professors criticizing Paul Ryan? · 17 minutes ago
We got there because at some point one leads to the other.
Mar '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville:
But here’s a more general question … is being politically liberal … immoral? Is anyone here willing to say that your politics measures your morality, so that being liberal means being immoral? Many Jesuits are politically liberal. The Order tends to be liberal. Does that make them immoral or religiously disobedient? · 53 minutes ago
It's certainly possible, depending on which liberal teaching they propound. A group calling itself "Jesuits for a Free Choice" would be problematic, I think.
Jan '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Brian Watt
...
might be refreshing to hear. My concern is not so much with the pronouncement of the Georgetown contingent (it is sadly too common), or the media coverage of it, but rather the lack of outrage from more conservative Catholics to challenge the Marxist influence within their ranks.
Well, that brings us to the practical issues of living in a church.
The Catholic Church doesn't claim magisterium about politics. We have a two thousand year detailed history of what happens when you push the church's nose into politics, and it isn't a happy story.And, hard as it may be to believe, we actually learned some lessons from that experience. They still stray into politics now and then, and get properly swatted for that mistake.
Second, correctly in my view, the church doesn't conduct theology through the media.
Third, the church can authoritatively discuss the principle of subsidiarity - but should the local Washington DC bishop referee whether a budget proposal exhibits the principle? Or whether it exhibits it sufficiently?
It's one thing to object to paying for abortions; but should a bishop declare a Medicare funding level to be "sufficiently" moral?
Feb '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Thanks, Brian, for bringing up this question. Here's a response from Paul Ryan himself, over at the National Catholic Register website, a site I check into as regularly as Ricochet for its insight and news reporting.
Jan '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Brian Watt
I think you need to address specifically what these "bunch of professors" are expressing and whether they are accurate in their interpretation that Ryan in misguided in his understanding of Catholic doctrine.
Yeah. They're wrong.
But 90 liberal professors don't speak with the authority of the church. Only bishops speak with that authority. If I stood up and criticized anyone, I would have no more authority than the liberals whom I'm criticizing. That's what bishops are for - they make those calls.
You say that not enough Catholics are willing to smack down the liberals. But that's only because you don't see any opposition, and your chief source of knowledge about what's going on in the church is the liberal media. The liberal media doesn't report liberals getting smacked down.
As proof, you may have heard that the Vatican is smacking down the nuns' umbrella organization for sliding toward radical feminism.
So, frankly, it's disproportionate to focus on a dinky media release as opposed to a Smack Down of Vatican proportions.
Mar '12
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Ninety leftists/socialists working for a Catholic university bemoan the fact that caring for the poor, which should belong to individual Catholics and actual Catholic charities, of which the federal government is not one, are upset with Paul Ryan. I am a Catholic and I am upset with these professors who apparently don't represent actual Catholic thinking.
The Catholic Church and the welfare state are two different entities. Perhaps the Jesuit leadership at Georgetown should make the professors aware of that fact, if the Jesuits are still Catholic.
Even better, replace the nannies with Catholics who know why they are Catholic and can explain and defend actual Catholic positions. Wouldn't that be novel?
Edited on April 26, 2012 at 4:52pmRe: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville
Yeah. They're wrong.
But 90 liberal professors don't speak with the authority of the church. Only bishops speak with that authority. If I stood up and criticized anyone, I would have no more authority than the liberals whom I'm criticizing. That's what bishops are for - they make those calls.
You say that not enough Catholics are willing to smack down the liberals. But that's only because you don't see any opposition, and your chief source of knowledge about what's going on in the church is the liberal media. The liberal media doesn't report liberals getting smacked down.
As proof, you may have heard that the Vatican is smacking down the nuns' umbrella organization for sliding toward radical feminism.
So, frankly, it's disproportionate to focus on a dinky media release as opposed to a Smack Down of Vatican proportions.
People need to understand how the church works. This letter is so unimportant it doesn't even warrant any kind of official response.
Jan '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
No ... that's what I'm asking you ... how does one point lead to the other?
Suppose I made the ludicrous objection that ... hey, are you saying ???? ... that anyone who opposes Paul Ryan must be abetting dictators???? You'd rightfully answer that, of course, one doesn't automatically lead to the other.
So, how do we get from criticizing Paul Ryan to dictator support?
Jul '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Who would have thought living within your means was so uncool and non biblical.
Jun '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville
Yeah. They're wrong.
But 90 liberal professors don't speak with the authority of the church. Only bishops speak with that authority. If I stood up and criticized anyone, I would have no more authority than the liberals whom I'm criticizing. That's what bishops are for - they make those calls.
You say that not enough Catholics are willing to smack down the liberals. But that's only because you don't see any opposition, and your chief source of knowledge about what's going on in the church is the liberal media. The liberal media doesn't report liberals getting smacked down.
I hadn't realized that FoxNews was part of the "Liberal Media". Are they as "Liberal" as the Georgetown Nearly 90? Or less so?
If a contingent of well-known conservative Catholics held a press conference and openly and publicly took issue with the Georgetown group are you suggesting that this wouldn't get coverage? I realize, of course, that organizing a community of conservatives is perhaps more challenging than community organizing on the opposite side of the political spectrum. The opposition has had more practice at it.
Jan '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Basil Fawlty
It's certainly possible, depending on which liberal teaching they propound. A group calling itself "Jesuits for a Free Choice" would be problematic, I think.
Sure. But all that's going on in this silly little letter is that a few liberals are trying to grandstand against Paul Ryan's claim that his budget follows the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. It isn't a sign of rampant liberal immorality ... it's a media-based political cheap shot. It's garbage, but it's nothing more meaningful than a move in a media campaign.
It doesn't reveal any secret trends that the Catholic Church is slipping into Sodom and Gomorrah.
Jun '10
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville
No ... that's what I'm asking you ...howdoes one point lead to the other?
Suppose I made the ludicrous objection that ... hey, are you saying ???? ... that anyone who opposes Paul Ryan must be abetting dictators???? You'd rightfully answer that, of course, one doesn't automatically lead to the other.
So, howdo we get from criticizing Paul Ryan to dictator support? · 4 minutes ago
Let me know if you need any more question marks. I've saved a whole slew of them. I need to head to my place of work and I look forward to answering you more completely later. Ta.
Mar '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
KC Mulville
Basil Fawlty
It's certainly possible, depending on which liberal teaching they propound. A group calling itself "Jesuits for a Free Choice" would be problematic, I think.
Sure. But all that's going on in this silly little letter is that a few liberals are trying to grandstand against Paul Ryan's claim that his budget follows the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. It isn't a sign of rampant liberal immorality ... it's a media-based political cheap shot. It's garbage, but it's nothing more meaningful than a move in a media campaign.
It doesn't reveal any secret trends that the Catholic Church is slipping into Sodom and Gomorrah. · 2 minutes ag
Never said it did, KC. I was simply responding to your specific question about whether liberalism and morality are mutually exclusive. Sometimes they can be.
Jan '11
Re: Paul Ryan Offends Georgetown Professors and Administrators
Brian Watt
I hadn't realized that FoxNews was part of the "Liberal Media".
...
If a contingent of well-known conservative Catholics held a press conference and openly and publicly took issue with the Georgetown group are you suggesting that this wouldn't get coverage?
You know why people issue press releases? To get the press' attention.
Maybe I should say explicitly what I'm taking for granted: this is not theology. The liberal professors aren't issuing a theological treatise on some moral principle. They're playing to the media.
FoxNews picked it up, but it wasn't because Bret Baier unearthed a secret memo. The 90 liberals wrote this letter to get media attention, and to push the "feeling" that supporting Paul Ryan isn't necessarily the Catholic teaching. They issued a press release.
That's how we play this game. This isn't theology. This is politics.