Papal Infallibility
Severely Ltd. ·
January 2, 2013 at 3:06pm
I have tremendous respect for many of the Catholics on Ricochet, so don't mistake this for mean-spirited provocation, but this is disturbing and seems not at all helpful:
"Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday he is convinced that peace will prevail in 2013, despite the inequality, terrorism and "unregulated financial capitalism" that afflict the world today."
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Comments:
May '10
Re: Papal Infallibility
It may comfort you to know that Papal infallibility doesn't mean the Pope can't be wrong.
Not that I necessarily think he is wrong in this case.
Feb '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
Rather than rely on a news story, I would read the Pope's actual homily, which is based on the readings for today's Mass.
The Gospel speaks of the shepherds seeing the angel's words to them fulfilled and the circumcision of Jesus according to the Law. In spite of the tumult and uncertainty surrounding her, Mary maintains an inner peace and serenity. I quote the Holy Father:
Feb '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
Also, as katievs notes above, papal infallibility has nothing at all to do with whether or not the Pope's predictions for 2013 are true or not.
I attempt in post #2 to show that the news story misunderstands what the Pope is saying. He is NOT saying that there will be no wars or troubles in 2013. He IS saying that, in spite of those troubles, Christians need to maintain inner peace, with Our Lady as a model.
Mar '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
He wasn't speaking ex cathedra.
Dec '10
Re: Papal Infallibility
I could be wrong, but I think the point Severely is making is that the Pope included "unregulated financial capitalism" in the list of things the world is inflicted with that threaten peace.
Oct '10
Re: Papal Infallibility
KatieVS and Mama Toad, I confess that I did think it meant the Popes judgement was akin to Scripture, but now I recall reading that, as you say and link, it is not. I'll look at the link.
I do have a problem with anyone singling out inequality (when true deprivation isn't a factor) and 'unregulated financial Capitalism' as leading world problems. Those two concerns are far down the list and bringing attention to them buttresses false thinking.
Apr '12
Re: Papal Infallibility
Sound as if the Pope could do with taking a course in economics, starting with reading Adam Smith. I can recommend a great new book on economics, The Economics Book: Big Ideas Simply Explained by a group of distinguished experts.
On the other hand, it probably wouldn't make any difference anyway as his infallible mind is tuned in to "helping the poor". It probably doesn't occur to him that the Vatican is rich from all the contributions made by all those "unregulated financial capitalists" in the past. I wonder if the Mafia could be included?
Oct '10
Re: Papal Infallibility
Yes, Mama Toad, that link answers some of my worry.
I still can't help thinking how unwise a statement like that is and how easy it would have been to not say it. How will this sound to the Catholic Church in Latin America, with leftist tendencies at the best of times.
May '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
That is precisely what struck me as well, and it makes me shudder. I'd kind of like to see that single phrase broken down a bit - otherwise, I would much rather see it completely eliminated from religious rhetoric. Seems foolish to toss in something that just makes you sound ignorant.
Granted, I'll give the Pope the benefit of the doubt on this one - were those his actual words, or was that the paraphrase of a news article?
Feb '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
The Pope did not say that unregulated capitalism is a threat to world peace. You may think I am quibbling, but he actually said, quoting from his own message on the World Day of Peace:
"It is alarming to see hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing instances of inequality between rich and poor, by the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism."
He said that selfishness is a cause of tension and conflict. He does not condemn capitalism.
Also, Red Feline, the Pope's "mind" is not infallible. Perhaps you could take the time to learn what Catholic teaching on infallibility actually is so that you can actually mock the doctrine and not just the caricature that exists only in your own mind.
Apr '12
Re: Papal Infallibility
Interesting how everything can be looked at in so many ways. Even Muhammad in the Qur'an explains that the tax taken by the Mosque for the poor was to be spent on Muslims, especially those who were administering it.
Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for their is the kingdom of heaven", was taken spiritually by the Church of Scotland. It was said to mean that the "poor in spirit" were those who were suitably aware of their place in the scheme of things, and weren't under the impression that they were God.
Sorry, that was a digression! To me, that statement by the Pope seems a political statement, and explains why so many Roman Catholics vote Democrat.
May '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
Following_Mama_Toads_actual_link, this_paragraph_still_gives_me trouble.
If the Pope is not actively pushing political socialism, then he is very foolishly and poorly choosing his words.I also think he greatly misses the point - is the existence of income inequality the cause of conflict, or is individual greed? Would greater equality eliminate the need for the 10th commandment, or would people still covet their neighbor's goods?H/T_10_Cents_for_keeping_me_under_the_word_limit.
Apr '12
Re: Papal Infallibility
As I was an "unregulated financial capitalist" for 15 years, I take great exception to this statement. This was one reason I left the Church. I was so fed up with being made to feel that as a business person I am a criminal, and as a libertarian conservative, I was almost an apostate.
I don't care what else the Pope was saying, he could have given the rest of the message without making a direct attack on Capitalism.
Oct '10
Re: Papal Infallibility
I don't see that as any more helpful than the news article version. You can certainly parse it to mitigate the damage, but the average person will not and he certainly should have realized this. As you might say though, he doesn't pretend to be infallible in this area. Fair enough. It was very bone-headed though.
Dec '10
Re: Papal Infallibility
Catholic Democrats generally despise these "conservative" popes, like PBXVI. Maybe you should stick to what you know, Red Feline, and instead approach the Catholic Church with a spirit of inquiry. Just a suggestion.
May '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
Mama Toad: The Pope did not say that unregulated capitalism is a threat to world peace. You may think I am quibbling, but he actually said, quoting from his own message on the World Day of Peace:
"It is alarming to see hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing instances of inequality between rich and poor, by theprevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindsetwhich also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism."
He said that selfishness is a cause of tension and conflict. He does not condemn capitalism.
Funny how you and I read that differently, although admittedly (and this is not a bad thing) you are clearly looking for the best interpretation, while I was giving a first impression. I still think it inadvisable wording on his part. He specifically says that conflict is caused by growing instances of inequality. Even when Jesus says to render unto Caesar, he does not condemn Caesar for his wealth; rather, he admonishes the Christian, saying that wealth is God's.
Here, the Pope points to inequality as the cause - I don't see that as helpful, and I don't find that to be Biblical. God might speak (cont...)
Feb '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
Like the Pope, I believe that there are higher goods than economic ones. I quote again from his message for World Peace Day:
May '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
(...cont) to wealthy Christians, telling them to give to the poor - but even when Jesus did speak, it was not in the context of a capitalist system that inevitably results in greater wealth for all. I cannot imagine that he would condemn such a system, but that he would speak out against coveting the rich (something caused by inequality? or by our sin nature?) while encouraging the hard work that, in a capitalist system, contributes to the good of the whole.
Apr '12
Re: Papal Infallibility
Mama Toad: The Pope did not say that unregulated capitalism is a threat to world peace. You may think I am quibbling, but he actually said, quoting from his own message on the World Day of Peace:
"It is alarming to see hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing instances of inequality between rich and poor, by theprevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindsetwhich also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism."
He said that selfishness is a cause of tension and conflict. He does not condemn capitalism.
Also, Red Feline, the Pope's "mind" is not infallible. Perhaps you could take the time to learn what Catholic teaching on infallibility actually is so that you can actually mock the doctrine and not just the caricature that exists only in your own mind. · 7 minutes ago
I wouldn't want to mock the beliefs of anyone, Mama Toad. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want.
My own belief system is a work constantly in progress, as I search ever wider for "Truth". The further I search, the more I am led to the understanding that each person has their own "Truth", and each is equally valid.
May '11
Re: Papal Infallibility
Mama, I agree with your understanding that their are greater goods than economic ones, but is that what the pope is saying when he condemns income inequality? It almost seems that he is attacking the elements which encourage negative human behavior, rather than the negative behavior itself. I can only reiterate that, even if you place "economic goals" at a low rung on the ladder, it is still something that greatly contributes to other goods - for instance, what about the fact that our capitalist system has allowed for greater advancements in health care than any other system known to man, allowing for the sorts of charity that you rightly encourage?
Taking the pope's message at face value, one sees that he is condemning (even more than covetousness) inequality. Yet, if inequality is a by-product of a system that allows for greater wealth (which, in turn, allows for greater charity), then to follow the pope's logic would be to reduce overall wealth in an effort to lesson the prevalence of covetousness. That seems counter-intuitive. In the end, by claiming to place "economic goals" on a low rung, he does a disservice to all of those higher rungs.