Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
From the remarks last month of Rev. Charles Chaput, Archbishop of Philadelphia, to the "Cardinal O'Connor Conference on Life":
Catholics need to wake up from the illusion that the America we now live in – not the America of our nostalgia or imagination or best ideals, but the real America we live in here and now – is somehow friendly to our faith. What we’re watching emerge in this country is a new kind of paganism, an atheism with air-conditioning and digital TV. And it is neither tolerant nor morally neutral.
As the historian Gertrude Himmelfarb observed more than a decade ago, “What was once stigmatized as deviant behavior is now tolerated and even sanctioned; what was once regarded as abnormal has been normalized.” But even more importantly, she added, “As deviancy is normalized, so what was once normal becomes deviant. The kind of family that has been regarded for centuries as natural and moral – the ‘bourgeois’ family as it is invidiously called – is now seen as pathological...."
The task you need to take home with you today is this. Never give up the struggle that the March for Life embodies. No matter how long it takes; no matter how many times you march – it matters, eternally. Because of you, some young woman will choose life, and that new life will have the love of God forever.....
Changing the course of American culture seems like such a huge task; so far beyond the reach of this gathering today. But St. Paul felt exactly the same way. Redeeming and converting a civilization has already been done once. It can be done again.
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Jun '11
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Karen
It's unfortunate that Catholics have been betrayed, but they shouldn't have gotten in bed with politicians in the first place.
So you don't like Catholics. We Lutherans have had our dust-ups with them too. But how about a little love for us poor confessional Lutherans who are usually accused of not getting in bed with anybody? We're sort of affected by the mandate too.
Here's the real issue, Karen: whether you think the Roman church deserves it or not, messing around with the First Amendment is not a good thing for anyone in the long run. That's why Lutherans and Jews and Baptists and Calvinists are all standing by Rome on this. Tyranny affects everyone.
Jan '11
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Noesis Noeseos
Oh, thank you, Mr. Meyer. Nothing except you call for it can be called for. Your authority dazzles the mind; it reaches dogmatic proportions. I only hope your ancestors were never stretched upon the rack.
Look, fellow, don't EVER write in a thread in which I have participated that pointing out what zealots have done to my people is uncalled for. You can rot in the cesspool of Dis before you will gain the legitimacy to assert such a thing.
Well, citing my incredible, magisterial, and dazzling authority, I point out that I spent the bulk of my post defending your objections to Richard Stewart.
Mar '11
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Noesis Noeseos
Roberto
Who are you. · 4 minutes ago
Deine Auseinadersetzung. · 3 minutes ago
Clever, even more so as you avoid my point. You are filled with resolve to repudiate a position no one is putting forward.
You have spent the past nine hours pillorying individuals who have no quarrel with you. Who are you? Why are you doing this?
Edited on February 26, 2012 at 4:12amJan '12
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Tom Meyer
Noesis Noeseos
Oh, thank you, Mr. Meyer. Nothing except you call for it can be called for. Your authority dazzles the mind; it reaches dogmatic proportions. I only hope your ancestors were never stretched upon the rack.
Look, fellow, don't EVER write in a thread in which I have participated that pointing out what zealots have done to my people is uncalled for. You can rot in the cesspool of Dis before you will gain the legitimacy to assert such a thing.
Well, citing my incredible, magisterial, and dazzling authority, I point out that I spent the bulk of my post defending your objections to Richard Stewart. · 5 minutes ago
Alright, man, I owe you an apology. But I hope you will understand just how deeply the wrongs done to my ancestors under the cover of pious excuses just agitate the worst in me. There is never a guarantee that such "righteous" crusades won't happen again, especially with this unmentionable person we have in the White House now.
Jan '12
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Roberto
Noesis Noeseos
Roberto
Who are you. · 4 minutes ago
Deine Auseinadersetzung. · 3 minutes ago
Clever, even more so as you avoid my point. You are filled with resolve to repudiate a position no one is putting forward.
You have spent the past nine hours pillorying individuals who have no quarrel with you. Who are you? Why are you doing this? · 7 minutes ago
Edited 0 minutes ago
I don't know what your point is, so how can I know whether I might have evaded it? You will enlighten me?
It certainly comes as a surprise to me that I have pilloried anyone. I sincerely hope that Pastor Esgert does not believe that my intent was to pillory.
Finally, I cannot accept your assertion that no one has put forth the position that acceptance of Christ as one's Lord is the only way to maintain morality in the U.S. Look to my first comment and to the comment to which it refers.
Jun '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Noesis Noeseos
Roberto
Noesis Noeseos
Deine Auseinadersetzung.
Clever, even more so as you avoid my point. You are filled with resolve to repudiate a position no one is putting forward.
[...]
I don't know what your point is, so how can I know whether I might have evaded it? You will enlighten me?
It certainly comes as a surprise to me that I have pilloried anyone. I sincerely hope that Pastor Esgert does not believe that my intent was to pillory.
Finally, I cannot accept your assertion that no one has put forth the position that acceptance of Christ as one's Lord is the onlyway to maintain morality in the U.S. Look to my first comment and to the comment to which it refers.
Obviously, Christians believe Judaism is sufficient for living a moral life. What was Jesus living except Judaism? Christians just don't believe it's the end of the story. Mormons don't believe that tradition Christianity is the end of the story. If Mormon missionaries come to "save me," well, God bless 'em. I'm not changing, but they can pray for me and I'll pray for them. Who's hurt?
Mar '11
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
What an odd statement. Of course I read the comment to which you refer. This is no support for your actions. You seem intent to assume offense where clearly none was intended.
Your actions at the very least raise the question of poor judgement and to those of a less generous nature whether or not you are engaging in discussion in good faith. It does not appear that you are.
May '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Christopher Esget
So you don't like Catholics...
Here's the real issue, Karen: whether you think the Roman church deserves it or not, messing around with the First Amendment is not a good thing for anyonein the long run. That's why Lutherans and Jews and Baptists and Calvinists are all standing by Rome on this. Tyranny affects everyone. · 35 minutes ago
I resent that accusation. I identify myself as a Christian. I happen to have many friends who are devout Catholics. If you read my first post, I criticize Protestant Evangelicals for the same offense. What I don't like is when an organized religion of any stripe takes sides in a political issue. You are free and encouraged to defend the First Amendment, but as a citizen, not a reverend or however you identify yourself. Your occupation as a clergyman doesn't grant you special status under the Constitution. Thank you, Founding Fathers. And I am very much against members of the clergy using their pulpits to attempt to form political policy, which is the very thing Catholics and other mainline religions have been doing for decades.
May '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
I apologize for my lengthy absence from this thread. A commitment to a family outing prevented me from responding sooner.
Noesis Noeseos: Please don't lump me in with Torquemada, I beg you. Take a look instead at Roger Williams, who founded Providence Plantation, a refuge for religious minorities, and was also an early advocate for what we call today "separation of church and state." In particular, Williams was adamantly opposed to any attempt to compel belief: he called it "rape of the soul." My Baptist forbears were often persecuted by Torquemada-esque opponents. It is remarkable that the USA managed to avoid an establishment of an official religion, which has helped make the USA unique in human history. The last week has shown us all how fragile this is!
Pastor Esget and others have said so much that I probably would have tried to say; I especially want to highlight what Pastor Esget said in comment #30:
Jun '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
When a married man calls his wife "the most beautiful woman in the world," he's not necessarily calling your wife ugly. People seem to understand that principle. I wish everybody would apply the same principle to religion. The proper response is, "Good for you. I'm happy that you're happy."
Jan '12
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Pastor Esgert engaged my theses as though they were worthy of consideration. In this he showed something of what is admirable about Christianity, the virtue of charity.
Certain others have implied, even asserted, that I displayed poor judgement. Their words I can only take as belligerent and so I have reported them. May they fare better than my ancestors fared when their bodies were stretched upon the rack.
Edited on February 26, 2012 at 5:37amJan '12
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Richard Stewart: I apologize for my lengthy absence from this thread. A commitment to a family outing prevented me from responding sooner.
Noesis Noeseos: Please don't lump me in with Torquemada, I beg you. ...
Nothing I have written could be interpreted of having lumped the Providence Baptists in with the Inquisitors of the world. I know quite well that you were cast out of the Congregations of Massachusetts and Connecticut. Now THEY might have been tempted to have resorted to the rack.
Thankfully none of my Jewish national kinsmen were present at the time to test the thesis. Except for a few very wealthy of the high bourgoisie, they were then still excluded from being allowed to take up residence in British lands. Nevertheless, one of the their first settlements in the British New World was located in Newport, Rhode Island. Their congregation later received a sympathetic missive from the diest, George Washington.
Edited on February 26, 2012 at 6:01amJun '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Noesis Noeseos
Tom Meyer
That said, Noesis Noeseos's references to Torquemada were uncalled for.
I only hope your ancestors were never stretched upon the rack.
Look, fellow, don't EVER write in a thread in which I have participated that pointing out what zealots have done to my people is uncalled for. You can rot in the cesspool of Dis before you will gain the legitimacy to assert such a thing.
Officially the Spanish Inquisition under Torquemada only had the authority to interrogate and punish baptized Catholics. Granted, he did persecute the Marranos (Jews who had converted to Catholicism rather than leave Spain after the expulsion of Jews and Muslims in 1492). But Catholics were also targeted, in fact Saints Teresa of Ávila and John of the Cross were both investigated.
If there were a modern Inquisition I'd have as much to fear from it as you; they might come around and start questioning my orthodoxy. For me the chief lesson of the Inquisition is the vital importance of the First Amendment: established state churches are very dangerous, and freedom of religion is a core human right.
Jun '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
You are quite right that clergy have no special status under the Constitution, nor should they. But do they have an inferior status?
Under the First Amendment all citizens have the freedom of speech and the right to peaceably assemble and petition the government. Do clergy not have those rights, too? Are they forfeit inside a church building? If any citizen has the right to stand on the steps of Congress and say whatever he wants about the government, does he not also have the right to say the same thing from a pulpit in a church? What is the difference?
Jun '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Noesis Noeseos
Assertions here on this thread of possessing a monopoly on truth.Fair question. I'll only reply, 6,000,000 dead; dogmatic promulgations couched in the holiest of language spanning over the extent of almost 2000 years.
Next question. ·
Hitler was a monster. In addition to 6 million Jews, he killed millions of ethnic Poles, many of them Catholic. He targeted Slavs, Gypsies, homosexuals, and the disabled.
The Nazis were racist xenophobes who practiced eugenics. They wanted to "cleanse" Germany of all non-Aryan "inferior" races. They killed many people like Saint Edith Stein, who though she was a Catholic nun was born Jewish.
Religious beliefs were less important to them than genes and ancestory. They cared more about pure blood than about pure thoughts.
May '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
KC Mulville: Then we see a truly vicious circle. The pattern has been repeated a few times now ...
It's an immoral Catch-22. · 13 hours ago
This is a frightful calculation, and it spells the end of us as free, self-governing people, I fear.
Jan '12
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Roberto
What an odd statement. Of course I read the comment to which you refer. This is no support for your actions. You seem intent to assume offense where clearly none was intended.
Your actions at the very least raise the question of poor judgement and to those of a less generous nature whether or not you are engaging in discussion in good faith. It does not appear that you are. · 3 hours ago
It was Richard Steward at #3: ONLY [my emphasis] the Gospel, preached by Apostle Paul...can change our culture...
But didn't the "change our culture" refer to a return to a more traditional morality?
A careful man may doubt my accuracy, fellow, but only a craven man would doubt my sincerity.
Edited on February 26, 2012 at 8:29amJun '11
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Karen
I resent that accusation. I identify myself as a Christian. What I don't like is when an organized religion of any stripe takes sides in a political issue. You are free and encouraged to defend the First Amendment, but as a citizen, not a reverend or however you identify yourself. Your occupation as a clergyman doesn't grant you special status under the Constitution. Thank you, Founding Fathers. And I am very much against members of the clergy using their pulpits to attempt to form political policy, which is the very thing Catholics and other mainline religions have been doing for decades.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. You do seem to be giving the RCC a pretty hard time, but yes, you've included others in your condemnation. So, if I understand you correctly, churches may express no opinion in any issue you deem "political"? Could you please give me a list of the things I'm not allowed to talk about?
I don't understand why you would say clergy get no special status under the constitution. Where did I or anyone here say they did?
Edited on February 26, 2012 at 2:33pmMay '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Karen
Prominent members of the clergy supported FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society, for instance.
A fair point. On the other hand, the Catholics who are most appalled (not shocked) by the mandate are the ones who have also lamented and decried the Church's alliance with the left.
How is this to the point? The HHS mandate is effectively establishing a state religion hostile to Catholicism. It's not okay.
Why? Do you argue that it's okay to violate the rights of Catholics, because Catholics have often been on the wrong side of political issues?
Injustice is injustice. I'm not singling out non-Catholics in my charge. It applies to everyone who distorts Santorum's views.
He is a conservative. He wants to devolve power away from the federal government back where it belongs: to the people and to mediating institutions.
May '10
Re: Paganism with Air-Conditioning and Digital TV
Karen, it seems to me you have such an antipathy to Catholicism that you are unconcerned that our most fundamental rights are being trampled by a statist left. You suggest that Catholics deserve to have our rights trampled.
You are so antipathetic that you imagine yourself justified in imputing secret, evil motives to us.
Rick Santorum thinks birth control is immoral (as do all faithful Catholics), therefore Rick Santorum must have a secret plan to betray all his oft and clearly stated conservative principles and impose a federal ban on birth control.
I call that bigotry.
Edited on February 26, 2012 at 4:27pm