Obama as the Moderate?
Terrence O. Moore, Guest Contributor ·
Aug 17, 2011 at 9:17am
Rick Perry in 2009:
When we came into the nation in 1845, we were a republic. We were a stand-alone nation. And one of the deals was, we can leave anytime we want. So we're kind of thinking about that again.
I am all for a serious, patriotic, and constitutional discussion about the 10th Amendment and federalism. But won't statements like this (and there are a few of them), even in jest, sink the Republican Party by allowing the incumbent to pose as the thoughtful, responsible moderate?
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Dec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
That does not qualify as thoughtless sentiment in Texas. It is taught as gospel truth.
Mar '11
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
I find it hard to believe that anyone will believe Mr Obama one more time, but you never know.
I'm not at all opposed to giving the Liberals the NE and NW states, and letting them go bankrupt, while the rest of the country thrives - but I'm not a thoughtful, responsible moderate.
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
The aim is not to be a thoughtful, responsible moderate. The aim is to expose Mr. Obama and his Party as the true extremists who have abandoned American principles (starting in 1912).
My history books tell me that Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican president and that the Party succeeds as long as it follows his and the Founders' principles. And Abraham Lincoln was NOT a secessionist. In fact, I believe there was a war fought over the issue. Texas was on the wrong side of that war. Does Rick Perry know that?
Dec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Terrence O. Moore, Guest Contributor: The aim is not to be a thoughtful, responsible moderate. The aim is to expose Mr. Obama and his Party as the true extremists who have abandoned American principles (starting in 1912).
My history books tell me that Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican president and that the Party succeeds as long as it follows his and the Founders' principles. And Abraham Lincoln was NOT a secessionist. In fact, I believe there was a war fought over the issue. Texas was on the wrong side of that war. Does Rick Perry know that? · Aug 17 at 9:45am
Indeed, all true. However, from the Texas standpoint, it entered the union in a wholly unique manner. Treaties are not necessarily forever.
There is room, I think, for a conversation on states' rights. Did the Civil War cause a paradigm shift in which the nation stopped being an extension of the states? Are the states now merely bureaucratic subdivisions of the national government?
Aug '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Perry's statement, and the sentiment behind it, is just fine by me. I don't take it as a serious threat toward secession, but rather one of frustration with the extremist policies of the current administration and their unelected bureaucrats.
Obama posing as a moderate is only believable by folks on the left who aren't "in play" at any rate.
Mar '11
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
"I'm not at all opposed to giving the Liberals the NE and NW states, and letting them go bankrupt, while the rest of the country thrives"
As a fervently liberty-loving citizen of the Granite State, I'd prefer not to be left to the dogs.
I don't take Perry to be seriously suggesting secession, but this is not an isolated quip, and he isn't winking strongly enough when he says it. I think the Civil War settled this issue.
"the true extremists who have abandoned American principles (starting in 1912)"
Terrence: It seems to me that it is our principles which are eternal, but that their application may require some finesse. I suspect that this means that the government in 2011 may look quite a bit different, institutionally, from that of 1911. The economy itself is just one reason among many.
Nevertheless, we should surely denounce the heavy dose of historicism and nihilism that dominates the Progressive ideology.
Mar '11
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
"But won't statements like this (and there are a few of them), even in jest, sink the Republican Party by allowing the incumbent to pose as the thoughtful, responsible moderate?"
If you change your message because of fear of what your opponents will say about you, then you're going to lose anyway.
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Lincoln addresses the case of Texas in his Special Message to Congress of July 4th, 1861. He acknowledges that Texas entered had been a sovereign nation, unlike the other states. But he points out that Texas surrendered her sovereignty when she joined the Union and "acknowledged the Constitution of the United States, and the laws and treaties of the United States made in pursuance of the Constitution. to be, for her, the supreme law of the land."
He goes on to point out that "The States have their status in the Union, and they have no other legal status. If they break from this, they can only do so against law, and by revolution."
Governor Perry should spend some time studying what the Founders and Framers understood by the relationship between individual natural rights, the states, and the national government.
Some people forget that the states have a long history of abusing the rights of individuals (see the 1780's and the abridgement of individual rights in many Southern states in the decades leading up to the Civil War).
Dec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
So the states are just bureaucratic subdivisions of the union. This is not what we fought the revolution for.
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Hi King Prawn,
No, not at all. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. But the states have their legitimate prerogatives under the Constitution. Of course states, in our partly federal/partly national system (to borrow a phrase from Madison) are not sovereign. They are part of a larger whole.
The national government has those powers delegated to it by the people (not the states) and enumerated in the Constitution. The state governments have those powers delegated to them by the people (and protected by Art. I Section 9, Art. IV sections 1-3, Article V, and the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution).
Federalism and decentralized administration are critical to maintaining free government in the US. But they are not ends in themselves. They are means to securing our rights.
The King Prawn
So the states are just bureaucratic subdivisions of the union. This is not what we fought the revolution for. · Aug 17 at 10:51am
Dec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Good plan, bad execution. The reality is that the central government has grown beyond the limits set in the constitution. It operates in every way with powers not delegated to it. Some might go so far as to say it has lost legitimacy because it violates the sovereignty of the people. It is unrecognizable in form from that which was designed. The very sad visual I just had was that of an obese Barbie. I normally just chuckle to myself, but that one was just too odd to horde.
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
But the cause of the anti-constitutional expansion of government power was not the principles or the Constitution meant to instantiate those principles. The cause was the rejection of limited government by the Progressive movement.
This rejection deforms government at every level. Yes, Texas state government is much better than say Illinois (where I grew up). But it too has been deformed by Progressive ideology. The same applies to local government. Many advocates of state rights forget this part of the picture. Some state governments are much more intrusive than the federal government.
Dec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
John Grant: The cause was the rejection of limited government by the Progressive movement.
This rejection deforms government at every level. Yes, Texas state government is much better than say Illinois (where I grew up). But it too has been deformed by Progressive ideology. The same applies to local government. Many advocates of state rights forget this part of the picture. Some state governments are much more intrusive than the federal government. · Aug 17 at 11:38am
This puts us back to government being a necessary evil which must be watched like a hawk and kept under control at all times. We have failed at controlling government at all levels. Playing moderate with government simply will never work. The tragic or constrained view wins again which is why keeping open the option of throwing off government that has become destructive to the ends of liberty is required. Even in jest it reminds those who would be our masters of a truth they can never legislate or wish away.
[Another day of getting more from Ricochet than years of college provided.]
Oct '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Did the Constitution in fact address the issue of secession? My understanding is that some infer that it did, and others disagree, since it isn't clearly stated. The Civil War can be considered to have settled the issue, but was it clear before then? And, more importantly, when did we consider it off limits to ever broach the subject again?
Perhaps instead of the ballet, we can clear the dance floor and get on with the blood letting that Jefferson among others believed was to be expected. Or, we can embrace the progressivist future and come up with another name for ourselves. Perhaps has-been-nation would be appropriate.
Aug '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
If you're from Texas, you understand how to take Perry's comment. It's a Texas thing. Nobody's seceding from the Union.
Dec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Raycon: "Did the Constitution in fact address the issue of secession? My understanding is that some infer that it did, and others disagree, since it isn't clearly stated. " No, but the first line of the Declaration of Independence ...
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another ...
Seems almost inevitable.
Dec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Edit: Oops, I should have googled before posting. I sould have said that Texans claim that they came into the Union by treaty.
I lived in Texas for five years. Texas was its own country before joining the union. Texas is the only state to have come into the union by treaty. According to Texans this treaty specified that they could secede if they wished. I have never seen said treaty.
Edited on Aug 17, 2011 at 1:47pmDec '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Peruse at your liesure. No treaty was ever ratified and the annexation was done through resolutions.
The joint resolution passed by congress.
Ordinance of annexation passed by Texas.
Edited on Aug 17, 2011 at 3:29pmJun '10
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
in answer to your question: No.
Re: Obama as the Moderate?
Hi Raycon,
No, secession is a constitutional impossibility.
The options for change are elections under the Constitution, the amendment process under the Constitution, or revolution. Revolution is, one may say, a moral remedy when adherence to the law is morally impossible.
raycon: Did the Constitution in fact address the issue of secession? My understanding is that some infer that it did, and others disagree, since it isn't clearly stated. The Civil War can be considered to have settled the issue, but was it clear before then? And, more importantly, when did we consider it off limits to ever broach the subject again?
Perhaps instead of the ballet, we can clear the dance floor and get on with the blood letting that Jefferson among others believed was to be expected. Or, we can embrace the progressivist future and come up with another name for ourselves. Perhaps has-been-nation would be appropriate. · Aug 17 at 12:18pm