My Problem With Libertarians...
Me, I'm as confused as Rob Long is about SOPA. That's why, earlier today, I thought I'd find out more in the modern way. I Tweeted:
Should I be for or against this SOPA thing? I'm agnostic, in the way I once briefly was about Julian Assange...
Here were some of the replies:
depends whether you're 'agnostic' about corruption
Well, if you're for it, you're going to have to stop calling yourself a libertarian. If that helps.
AGAINST! Jesus, James - get a grip!
So I conceded that I was probably against SOPA but wondered what might be done to protect intellectual property rights.
Here were some of the replies:
If enforcing property rights on the Internet troubles you, why not use Obama's 'Kill-Switch' and shut the whole thing down.
Read this: http://ip.cream.org/ and never take question begging nonsense like "intellectual property" at face value again
We don't? Intellectual property rights, are not a natural but a state created right (and thus not one at all).
Can you see what troubled me about these responses? I felt like a nature rambler, out for a nice country walk who'd curiously - and without malice - prodded something with his stick only to realize it was full of irritable hornets.
OK - maybe Twitter was the wrong place to go asking; yes, I accept the limitations of the 140-word medium; sure Twitter lends itself to snarkiness.
Nevertheless, there was something in the shrillness, the impatience, the dogmatism, the God-you're-so-stupid-if-you-can't-see... of those responses which was disturbingly familiar. I've encountered the same thing whenever I've written a blog post mildly criticizing - or failing to give sufficient mention to - Ron Paul; and also when I first expressed my doubts (quite justified, as it turned out) about the appalling Julian Assange. And what I blame here is the surprising prickliness and intolerance of libertarians.
Being of a libertarian persuasion myself I find this rather depressing. I yield to no man in my loathing of the overweening state and I have taken a great deal of flak from liberal-leftists for expressing this loathing in my usual sensitive, subtle way. I believe in liberty. Darn it - I believe in the legalization of drugs. Yet still, I find myself being lectured by self-styled libertarians that I'm not a proper libertarian because I don't share, say, Ron Paul's foreign policy views or because I believe that creatives should somehow be paid for their ideas rather than having them ripped off willy-nilly for the greater good of "freedom of information". This tendency is not just tedious and annoying but also self-destructive. If libertarians are going to bring skeptics round to their position, surely a bit less shrillness, finger-wagging and irritability is in order, and a bit more charm and patient explanation. I know this can be difficult in a world where cultural Marxism holds sway. But you know what: not all of us have the time to spend our every waking hour reading Reason or boning up on obscure essays like this one on The Libertarian Case On Intellectual Property Rights.
Maybe it's time libertarians lightened up a bit, chilled out, smoked a bit more weed. After all, isn't that kind of the point?
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Sep '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
The era of Friedman is over.
Nov '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Once I finish enjoying the "Country Walk" imagery, I'll try diving into this intellectual mess as well.
"I felt like a nature rambler, out for a nice country walk..."
Such a wonderfully English thing to say.
Apr '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Mr. Dellingpole, go to this Ricochet post. You will see "the shrillness, the impatience, the dogmatism, the God-you're-so-stupid-if-you-can't-see" of people who support various levels of intellectual property.
Apr '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
This simply seems more like a case of 'good idea, wrong legislation' than anything else. There's a general agreement that this type of activity should be regulated at least to some degree, but that these bills are too heavy handed and have all kinds of potential negative side effects that will outstrip their merits.
May '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Is anyone persuaded that this is a pressing problem and that the current laws do not sufficiently protect intellectual property? Don't the current laws provide sufficient cause to go after actual pirates? The best Libertarian argument should be that the government getting involved will ultimately do far more harm than whatever the perceived problem is that inviting government interference is meant to solve.
Edited on January 19, 2012 at 8:28pmDec '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
There are real totalitarian urges rooted inside many libertarians’ souls.
Apr '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Oh no James. I assure you on Ricochet it is no less contentious of a subject to discuss IP. There is a good case to be made that people get too wound up about it. I myself get worked up sometimes, too...
I think IP is one of those issues where the dividing lines are very stark, because they originate from very divergent views of first principles. People get really worked up about these divides because they are really the cause of the argument, and unless you can convince some one to switch their basic assumptions you will never get anywhere in arguing with them. So there is always a desperate move to cudgel people into agreeing with you especially undecided people.
I think also in the case of IP and libertarians/conservatives the fight is even more fierce because we really agree very much about everything, but there are a few different interpretations that send us going in very different directions. So the points of contention are smaller and more focused.
Jun '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
In the US, the path to libertarianism is so varied that the only thing most libertarians have in common is their gripes. And if you don't share their gripes, then they have no time for you. And if they're capital-L Libertarians, involved in the political party, they're obviously not the practical sort, They always lose.
Apr '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
I'm a libertarian-conservative like Delingpole. I disagree with him about intellectual property. I think people can't own ideas.
What's totalitarian about that? Or is all this just an example of the irresponsible rhetoric Mr. Delingpole mentioned, but on the other side?
Edited on January 19, 2012 at 8:26pmMay '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Agreed James. I consider myself mostly libertarian, but because I am religious, any political spectrum quiz I take counts me out. Makes for a rather small tent IMO. Lance...I enjoyed the imagery too. I found the walking stick particularly English.
May '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
So I can own what I produce with my back i.e. labor but can't own what I produce with my brain i.e. IP. Interesting.
Dec '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Trace, the problem in this case is the pirates are located off our shores and out of the reach of the laws we have to handle this sort of piracy. This legislation is aimed at cutting their funding from and access to our markets. But, as with much legislation, this is like using a shotgun to kill a flea.
Jan '12
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
I don't know... I'm religious myself, but I score pretty strongly toward being a libertarian. Then again, I've learned over the years that my religious views (I'm a Christian existentialist) aren't exactly what most would consider "orthodox". I consider my faith to be compatible with libertarianism mostly from the perspective of "God gave us free will, including making us free to make our own mistakes - ultimately, it's up to us to ask for forgiveness from our own shortcomings."
I agree with James' thesis, though - there are some really conspiratorial people that call themselves libertarians. Makes for some weird reactions when I tell people that I'm a libertarian, that's for sure.
Jul '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
No such thing off our shores and out of reach if you have a predator drone!
BTW - before everyone flips out. That was my bad attempt at humor.
Edited on January 19, 2012 at 8:40pmMay '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
I understand that well enough. I just am not persuaded that it's not either a) a trade issue; or b) an effective non-cash marketing expense promoting the American entertainment industry.
The aggregate revenues for artistic content is rising and artists and authors are seeing their audiences grow and making obscene amounts of money as a result. In other words, creative and intellectual endeavor proceeds at a healthy clip undeterred by Internet piracy. What is changing is the business model and the market share and which middle man makes a profit. The proposed regulation is only about preserving a status quo and I don't see that as as pressing public good. In fact it smacks of cronyism and unreasonable corporate influence.
Dec '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Thats just modern internet communication. It is pretty much the standard...... Every where.
Sep '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
James, one of the major problems with this law is that it will censor complete websites for one link to one "pirated" piece of content, which is disproportionate to the crime to say the least. Even if this penalty won't be enforced all the time, it gives regulators entirely too much discretion--we need to be rolling back ad hoc governance, not increasing it.
Second, the current scheme of intellectual "property" law is not in alignment with the natural law and is thus unjust. Just because Disney has bought Congress several times and extended copyright from two renewable 30 year periods to well over a century of automatic extensions is not to say that this scheme is just and that those that violate it are "thieves" and "pirates".
Fundamentally copying your work is not the same as sneaking into your house and stealing your TV as copying a work is non-rivalrous, to use the economic term. Trying to conflate copying works to being the same as theft of physical property and to corrupt the language by calling potential Shakespeares (a well known user of other's intellectual "property") "thieves" and "pirates" is genuinely Orwellian.
Dec '11
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Yes, there is an enforceable right to intellectual property. No, SOPA is not the way to go about it.
And, no, Bellling Fan, the age of Milton Friedman is not over. It will never be over.
Sep '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Bottom line: current copyright law is unjust and economically inefficient (stifling innovation and creativity for the sake of a small pool of rent-collectors), and this law does nothing but extend this injustice and enforce the scheme with draconian penalties that will have a ice-age impact on free speech.
So, all around, this law is terrible. If it passes it shows that the House of Representatives is truly broken and is not serving its purpose as the People's house; this will serve as yet another example of why the number of representatives if far too few because the common man is not driving the work of the House.
So, let me yet again make my plea: increase the size of the House to 10,000 representatives--it will have a dramatic effect in improving the government of these United States.
Here's a brief summary of why this is such a great idea:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/228369/we-need-bigger-house/jonah-goldberg
Oct '10
Re: My Problem With Libertarians...
Underlying the SOPA/PIPA controversy is the absurd hypertrophy of copyright term in the U.S. Copyright is based upon Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the U.S. Constitution, which empowers the Congress:
Now, “limited Times” was not spelled out, but when I was born it was 28 years, renewable once, which seemed a pretty reasonable fit to the human lifespan of the creator. With the enactment of the Copyright Term Extension Act in 1998, protection has been extended to the life of the author plus 70 years or, for works of corporate authorship (corporations aren't people—they're better!), 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever comes first. This essentially amounts to perpetual copyright, and results in a vast collection of orphaned works no longer in print (or other media) which cannot be reproduced because of the dead hand of absurd copyright expiry times.
Copyright is a balance, and the present regime seems way out of equilibrium.