Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
The taxi's coming to take me to the airport in about three hours. I just woke up with a start, thinking that I'd overslept, and now I'm afraid to go back to sleep for fear that I will. I'm all packed, and it's the middle of the night, so Ricochet buddies, would you please help keep me awake for the next few hours?
I'll give you something to start with. This reminded me of our earlier conversation about the critical things we just don't notice when we're focussing on something else.
I posted a link to our conversation about whether Islam itself is the enemy to my Facebook page. Some of my friends here in Istanbul (who are Moslems, and, as the word "friend" suggests, not my enemy) weighed in with responses that I think confirm my assertion that the Islamic world is not monolithic. In particular, my friend Babür left a long, thoughtful response, which I'll reproduce in full. (I've told my Facebook friends that anything they say on my page is on-the-record, and I've told Babür this in particular, so I'm sure he won't mind):
As a practicing muslim, and as somebody who's undertaken some Islamic studies, I might have a say for the closing remarks of this article:
-To decide whether Islam INSTITUTIONALLY embraces terrorism or not, the exact description and scope of “GENUINE” Islamic beliefs should be concretized first of all,
-I agree with the fact that, implementations of Islam are, unfortunately, as many as the number of muslims,
-Such differentiation upon "personal perceptions" is the misfortune of any mainstream & globalised religion,
-However, this differentiation occurs only in the practical level: the limits of Islamic beliefs - the theory, is all well defined,
-There is only one genuine, unique and clear-cut definition of Islamic beliefs, which is established back in 632 A.D., preserved with a sound application of METHODOLOGY (centuries before the European version of methodology was developed), and has survived so far,
-This set of beliefs is called "Sunnah", and its followers "Sunnis",
-In terms of daily religious activities, the Sunnah have several sub-categories, the practical sects / "MEZHEB"s; which provide Sunnis with a somehow wide range of options to choose from,
-The practical mezhebs are not at conflict with one another at all; one can pray according to "hanafi" mezheb, fast according to "shafi" mezheb, and yet, make his/her donations according to "maliki" mezheb, etc.: the Prophet (sav) has fulfilled his daily actions compatibly with all mezhebs,
-BUT THEN.. where do we locate the "Shia" concept?
-Clearly speaking, the modern Islamic world is divided into some 75 THEORETICAL mezhebs, most of which fall under the "Shia" category,
-The word "Shia" has its roots in the expression "Gulat-i Shia li Ali b. Ebi Talib", meaning "helpers of Ali b. Ebi Talib",
-Ali, the beloved cousin of Prophet and one of the capital masters of muslims - either Shia or Sunnis, has experienced a major political chaos near the end of his life, and naturally, a circle of helpers / political suppliers formed around him,
-The historical development, and thus, main BELIEF categories of these helpers, the Shia, has 4 main phases:
(1) those who favor Ali over Osman as a caliph (ONLY a political distinction),
(2) those who favor Ali over Abu Bakr and Omar as well (a FAR-FETCHED, but still political distinction),
(3) those who favor Ali over Prophet (sav) (the beginning point of BLASPHEMY),
(4) those who favor Ali over God (an EXTREME point of blasphemy).
-The last two phases emerged nearly a century after the death of the Prophet (sav); SO, DURING THE FIRST CENTURY OF ISLAM, THERE WAS NO DISTINCTION OF BELIEFS, BUT ONLY POLITICAL VIEWS,
-Apart from the Shia, some extremist sects also arose throughout the history, like Batinis, Ismailis, Durzis, etc., who are definitely non-muslims,
-So, in terms of beliefs, the modern Islamic world can be divided into three parts: (1) Sunnis, the unique believers, (2) non-Sunnis, but believers, (3) non-Sunnis and non-believers,
-Haven said all this..
How does genuine Islam, the Sunnah, approach terrorism?
Islam ABSOLUTELY forbids even the slightest offense against individuals (either women or men, the young or the old, etc.) who has not attacked Islam and/or muslims in a military fashion; even, military personnel figthing against Islam and/or muslims who ask for mercy during a full scale battle, should not be touched.
-This rule is very, very clear:
The first two warfare of Islamic history, The Battle of Badr and The Battle of Uhud, were of vital importance for the survival of the early Islamic society and thus, the entire religion.
EVEN DURING THOSE WARFARE, the Prophet (sav) applied the above principle with utmost certainty..
-A similar example is The Conquer of Mecca, where, the Prophet (sav) showed TOTAL mercy (involving the entire enemy army), after being oppressed, humiliated, and even subject to genocide for two decades..
-This is the REAL Islamic approach. Any sincere muslim IS OBLIGED TO oppose terrorism, suicide bombing, 9/11 attacks, El Qaeda, etc.
-The knowledge requirement standards enough to make a decree, or “ICTIHAD” were stated by the Prophet (sav) himself. Those fulfilling the standards, the “MUCTEHID”s can alone authorize the Islamic approach to any situation.
-Real muslims do not care about Imam Whatsoever, etc. has said, unless those so-called, often self-declared Imams measure up to be a muctehid..
I later left this comment:
I've just walked down a street filled literally with thousands of Moslems of exactly the kind many people are seriously arguing do not exist. I saw them with my own eyes, as I have every day for the past five years. With so many other questions in the world, why waste time debating this? Book a ticket to Istanbul, spend an afternoon here, have a lovely time, drink some tea, meet friendly, tolerant, warm, welcoming Moslems (mostly), and see for yourself. They exist! They're my neighbors and my friends! Babür, is there anyone at our gym, for example, who would not describe himself as a Moslem? Would any member of our gym endorse terrorism, honor killing, forcing me to wear the hijab, or subjecting me to a dhimmi tax? The idea is so absurd it's beyond discussion -- and yet we're discussing it.
Theo Spark found the conversation sufficiently interesting to link to it in his blog. He described the discussion as a "raging debate." I notice that his post has been picked up at Right Wing News. So now this chat among my friends is a raging and somewhat public debate, I guess.
The odd thing is that the "raging debate" is about whether moderate Moslems exist. That they do is a proposition so easily verifiable that I don't even have to leave my apartment to do it. I can just look out the window.
But no one even noticed the snake pit of controversy embedded in Babür's claim that Shi'a Islam is a heresy.
Now, as people who know the Islamic world well will tell you, that is--what is it Andrew Sullivan calls it?--the money quote. You just watch and see how much more blood is yet to be spilled over that claim.
And no one even noticed it--their attention was elsewhere.
More from Claire Berlinski
Don't Be Depressed By the GZM Debate
Arguments Good and Bad: the GZM, Zoning Law, and the Bush Doctrine
Let's Not Convince the World's Muslims We're Out to Destroy Islam
- Comment (96)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (7)
Comments:
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Claire Berlinski
Midget Faded Rattlesnake:
Babür writes English quite well, but even so, it can be a bit difficult to follow a non-native writer I'm reading for the first time. You know Babür already, and so probably have a clearer idea of what he means. · Aug 22 at 5:27pm
Well, no, to be honest. Mostly when I see Babür in person we discuss really controversial subjects, like "Which martial art is the best." If you think this topic gets people excited ... · Aug 22 at 5:34pm
When Claire and I get together, we discuss whether marinated cats are best served with a Chardonnay or a Pinot Grigio.
Sparks fly.
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Kenneth: Claire, I admire your dogged efforts at bridge-building, Honestly.
But you live in a totally atypical Muslim country, secularized by Ataturk.
This is exactly my point, though. Every time someone says, "Islam cannot be secularized," I smack my head.
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Claire Berlinski
Kenneth: Claire, I admire your dogged efforts at bridge-building, Honestly.
But you live in a totally atypical Muslim country, secularized by Ataturk.
This is exactly my point, though. Every time someone says, "Islam cannot be secularized," I smack my head. · Aug 22 at 5:39pm
But Ataturk arose at a unique time. The Ottoman Empire had just been destroyed in WW1 and Ataturk, whose father was Albanian and whose mother was Macedonian, was more Westernized than most of his countrymen.
He realized that the only way to lift Turkey out of its humiliation was to modernize - which meant to secularize. And he set about, brutally, to make that happen.
Where is today's Ataturk? Islam is moving away from his nationalism and toward a dream of a restored Caliphate.
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Let's wait for the election--or maybe even just for the September 12 referendum--before we declare the end of Kemalism, shall we?
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Claire, I'm curious: are cousin marriages common in Turkey, as they are in many Muslim countries?
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Yes.
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Babür replies (and why he's awake, I do not know):
... continued ...
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
and he continues:
... continued ...
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
and he continues some more ...
And more coming!
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
And he concludes:
And I may have to drop out here, because I just remembered a few things I forgot to pack. But I'll be back after my flight. Babür, I hereby invite you, as I'm sure we do all, to join Ricochet and continue in my absence.
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Claire, thanks for your very reasoned commentary, which is grounded in actual hands-on experience in the Muslim world.
Anyone who has traveled one whit in the Middle East knows that most grand statements about what Islam "is" are complete nonsense. As your friend Babur said, there are as many versions of Islam as there are practitioners. I've met Muslims of good will and peace in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Turkey, and the United States. I've found that the proportion of open-minded, friendly folks in these countries is usually similar.
I notice that many discussants are interested in discussing the Prophet Muhammad's personal record. Well, Moses had a fairly violent record at times, as did many of the other Old Testament prophets. No doubt that Muhammad permitted violence, even encouraged it. But a deeper engagement with Muhammad's circumstances provides a good bit of evidence that he was a civilizing and liberalizing force in the Arabian Peninsula in his time. I'm not excusing him, but I think that there's plenty of fertile ground for progressive and pacifist variations of Islam. I think that's the Muhammad most Muslims look toward, not the jihadist.
Jun '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
All around the World, Islam, as practiced, is incompatible with real religious freedom. Even in a place like Turkey. Any place where missionaries are routinely arrested or physically attacked is not a good place.
From: http://www.persecution.com/public/restrictednations.aspx?country_ID=NTA%3d
"Despite government claims and a constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, Christians do not enjoy freedom of religion in many areas. Politicians, police and the growing Islamist movement are hostile to anything Christian. Foreign missionaries are not given visas. The media portrays Christians as foreign government agents and spreads rumors that Christians bribe young people with money and sex. The public tends to believe these false accusations. A VOM contact has reported people throwing things at him, spitting at him and verbally abusing him for talking about Christ. He was also interrogated by the police after handing out New Testaments. On Feb. 12, 2009, a Turkish Bible Society bookstore in the city of Adana was vandalized by Muslim extremists for the second time in a week. A court trial continues for two men accused of killing two Turkish Christians and one German Christian in Malatya in 2007."
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
2) Throughout all the debates concerning "Islamic mercy against enemies", my opposites HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE to present a single sample other than Qurayza Tribe. WHAT OTHER EXAMPLES DO YOU HAVE, OTHER THAN BENI QURAYZA?
Grenada, Armenia, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Greece, the Balkans, Bangladesh.
Just a few of many examples.
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Charlie Dameron: Claire, thanks for your very reasoned commentary, which is grounded in actual hands-on experience in the Muslim world.
Anyone who has traveled one whit in the Middle East knows that most grand statements about what Islam "is" are complete nonsense.
So that's your argument? That other people's views are "nonsense"?
And that you've met a few nice guys in the Middle East?
And that Moses was a tough guy?
Pretty weak.
But your assertion that Mohammed was a civilizing and liberalizing force is just laughable. Read "The Real Mohammed" sometime.
Or, assuming you're unwilling to put in that much effort, just watch the Daniel Pearl beheading video.
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Claire, I would be intensely interested to hear your friend's take on the Armenian Genocide.
My bet is he is a denier. Hmm?
Aug '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
<i>Anyone who has traveled one whit in the Middle East knows that most grand statements about what Islam "is" are complete nonsense. As your friend Babur said, there are as many versions of Islam as there are practitioners.</i>
And yet the indubitable fact of these sentences -- Islam has no magisterium -- didn't prevent babur from being able to say in excruciating detail exactly what (he says) Islam teaches.
Look ... either there is an essence or there isn't. And if there isn't, any statement of the form "Islam teaches X" is automatically nonsense.
Edited on August 23, 2010 at 3:36amAug '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
To decide whether Islam INSTITUTIONALLY embraces terrorism or not, the exact description and scope of “GENUINE” Islamic beliefs should be concretized first of all
Actually ... no. The exact opposite is true.
To decide whether Islam INSTITUTIONALLY embraces terrorism, what must be concertized first is "what Muslims actually believe" and what must be concretized second is "how do Muslims react, comparatively, to those who do commit terrorism."
Essentialist doctrinal debates about The True Meaning of Religion X are meaningless to followers of Religions Y and Z (and they're something on which Y'ers and Z'ers have, in principle, nothing to contribute). Their only importance comes when followers of Religion X believe and follows these True Meaning debates.
In matters of secular governance, I'm a confirmed Nominalist and Empiricist. "Islam" is "Whatever Muslims say, do and think." Nothing else.
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Claire -- I love this description of Istanbul. I traveled to Istanbul last November to do some research and recall meeting, as you describe, many warm and friendly Muslims. They're only agenda, far from political, was to keep my glass of tea and plate of baklava filled up. And when we talked politics, only at my prompting, they had some dark words about Erdogan--specifically because they opposed what they saw as his Islamist agenda.
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Kenneth, I'm wary of brazenly trying to define a religion that's not my own. I'm not talking about reading books and watching documentaries. I'm talking about getting out into the real world and meeting real people. I've read plenty of stuff about Islam, including lots of material that's quite hostile to most Muslim histories. Read Hagarism by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook for an interesting mind-bender -- the very real possibility that Muhammad wasn't even an actual person, or at least that the Qur'an was written long after any "Muhammad" died. It's quite an interesting historical analysis of Islam's origins.
What is the essence of Islam? That's there's one God, Muhammad was his prophet, and the Qur'an is God's message. That's all you need to believe to be Muslim, and once you get beyond that, it's subject to layers and layers of interpretation. But when people define Islam as inherently violent, then they're defining Muslims as inherently violent. And, as Claire points out, that definition is just empirically wrong.
Jul '10
Re: Moderate Islam and the Things People Miss
Charlie Dameron Kenneth, I'm wary of brazenly trying to define a religion that's not my own.
Well, then, let's just take the Prophet's own words: