Michele Bachmann Is Offended
As has been noted below, Rick Perry performed well in tonight's debate until the subject of HPV inoculations for school girls came up. The other candidates, sensing that Perry was vulnerable on this topic, piled on. "To have innocent little 12-year old girls be forced to have a government injection through an executive order is just flat out wrong," Michele Bachmann interjected down the stage from Perry. From that point on in the debate, Perry never quite recovered, signaling to his opponents an opening for attack.
One such attack just arrived in my e-mail inbox from Michele Bachmann. Subject line: "I'm Offended"
Dear Fellow Conservative,
I'm offended.
If you watched tonight's Republican debate, you saw Rick Perry defend his decision to mandate a vaccine for young girls through an executive order while he was governor of Texas. As a mother, I have raised three biological daughters and 23 foster daughters, and I believe taking away a parents right to direct the health care of their children is flat out wrong . It’s a violation of liberty and everything you and I stand for.
Tonight, I also questioned why Governor Perry made this executive order. When you look at the facts, the question becomes, is this about life or is this about millions and potentially billions for the drug company?
We cannot forget that in the midst of the executive order, a big drug company made millions of dollars because of this mandate. This drug company's PAC made thousands of dollars in political donations to Governor Perry, and his own former Chief of Staff was working as the lobbyist for this drug company when he issued the mandate. This is flat out wrong.
Governor Perry says if given the option again he would not issue the mandate. However, as President of the United States there are no mulligans; there are no do-overs.
Congresswoman Bachmann is right -- as President of the United States, there are no do-overs. But that's why we prize executive experience in our candidates so much. A humble executive will have known successes, made mistakes, and learned by trial and error. In theory, that's what makes for a better chief executive.
I'm satisfied with Gov. Perry's admission that his executive order to force inoculations was wrong. But I suspect that we haven't heard the last word on this.
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Comments:
May '10
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Instugator: So my choices are Perry with an HPV vaccine vs Romney with RomneyCare. One guy says he used the wrong process (Perry - executive order) the other guy says the compulsion (RomneyCare) is in line with the 10th ammendment.
Perry issues the order in Feb 2007 and the Legislature undoes it in May of 2007 - good on Texas.
RomneyCare is ongoing.
Advantage: Perry · Sep 13 at 8:23am
The real parallel is with in-state tuition for illegals. Like Romney with Romneycare, Perry is refusing to back off that disastrous policy by painting it as a "state's rights" issue.
Mar '11
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Nathaniel Wright: First...a mandatory Polio vaccine saved a generation.
Second...mandatory MMR shots prevent the massive spread of illness in our schools.
Third...stopping the spread of disease is in the public interest and local governments have the authority under state constitutions and the Constitution to do things like this.
Fourth...parents can OPT OUT. The power of the individual to make a medical decision is still there. The Texas bill provides and pays for the vaccine for those who cannot afford it. · Sep 13 at 8:23am
I can't think of a single example of government coercion that isn't promoted on the basis of it's beneficial results.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Basil Fawlty
Nathaniel Wright: First...a mandatory Polio vaccine saved a generation.
Second...mandatory MMR shots prevent the massive spread of illness in our schools.
Third...stopping the spread of disease is in the public interest and local governments have the authority under state constitutions and the Constitution to do things like this.
Fourth...parents can OPT OUT. The power of the individual to make a medical decision is still there. The Texas bill provides and pays for the vaccine for those who cannot afford it. · Sep 13 at 8:23am
I can't think of a single example of government coercion that isn't promoted on the basis of it's beneficial results. · Sep 13 at 8:41am
But if you're allowed to opt-out, you really can't call it government coercion.
Mar '11
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
Nathaniel Wright: First...a mandatory Polio vaccine saved a generation.
Second...mandatory MMR shots prevent the massive spread of illness in our schools.
Third...stopping the spread of disease is in the public interest and local governments have the authority under state constitutions and the Constitution to do things like this.
Fourth...parents can OPT OUT. The power of the individual to make a medical decision is still there. The Texas bill provides and pays for the vaccine for those who cannot afford it. · Sep 13 at 8:23am
I can't think of a single example of government coercion that isn't promoted on the basis of it's beneficial results. · Sep 13 at 8:41am
But if you're allowed to opt-out, you really can't call it government coercion. · Sep 13 at 9:02am
Were it not government coercion, it would have been opt-in.
Jun '10
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Basil Fawlty
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
Nathaniel Wright: First...a mandatory Polio vaccine saved a generation.
Second...mandatory MMR shots prevent the massive spread of illness in our schools.
Third...stopping the spread of disease is in the public interest and local governments have the authority under state constitutions and the Constitution to do things like this.
Fourth...parents can OPT OUT. The power of the individual to make a medical decision is still there. The Texas bill provides and pays for the vaccine for those who cannot afford it. · Sep 13 at 8:23am
I can't think of a single example of government coercion that isn't promoted on the basis of it's beneficial results. · Sep 13 at 8:41am
But if you're allowed to opt-out, you really can't call it government coercion. · Sep 13 at 9:02am
Were it not government coercion, it would have been opt-in. · Sep 13 at 9:09am
Good point, Basil.
And can we please stop comparing public health threats of disesase spread through the air with STDs?
Vaccinating ten year olds becasuse they may get HPV is like giving them insulin because they may get diabetes.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Basil Fawlty
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
Nathaniel Wright: First...a mandatory Polio vaccine saved a generation.
Second...mandatory MMR shots prevent the massive spread of illness in our schools.
Third...stopping the spread of disease is in the public interest and local governments have the authority under state constitutions and the Constitution to do things like this.
Fourth...parents can OPT OUT. The power of the individual to make a medical decision is still there. The Texas bill provides and pays for the vaccine for those who cannot afford it. · Sep 13 at 8:23am
I can't think of a single example of government coercion that isn't promoted on the basis of it's beneficial results. · Sep 13 at 8:41am
But if you're allowed to opt-out, you really can't call it government coercion. · Sep 13 at 9:02am
Were it not government coercion, it would have been opt-in. · Sep 13 at 9:09am
Any time an individual has the option to participate or to abstain from participation, it is not coercion. You have a problem with the default setting. Fine. But by definition, it is not coercion.
May '10
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
StickerShock
And can we please stop comparing public health threats of disesase spread through the air with STDs?
Vaccinating ten year olds becasuse they may get HPV is like giving them insulin because they may get diabetes. · Sep 13 at 9:43am
Diabetes is contagious?
What modes of transmission would provide justification for the government to get involved with widespread public vaccination? Is the the mode of transmission that's most important, or the pervasiveness and danger of the particular disease?
Jun '10
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
katievs
The real parallel is with in-state tuition for illegals. Like Romney with Romneycare, Perry is refusing to back off that disastrous policy by painting it as a "state's rights" issue. · Sep 13 at 8:35am
I'm back and forth on this. We have essentially the same policy here in Georgia, and at first blush it does indeed offend my sensibilities. But I can't get around the fact that these young people - children when they were brought here - have been raised as Americans and citizens of their states. How is it right to punish them for the sins of their parents? I don't know the answer to this, but it nags at me.
Jan '11
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Arrrgh. I feel some people here still don't understand this. There is huge morbidity and mortality from HPV - not only genital tract malignancies, but also (as someone else mentioned) head and neck malignancies.
Vaccines to prevent illness and death for this virus are best administered at a young age. The risk factors for acquiring the disease generally occur at a later date, and then the person will be protected.
If you knew your kid could get a disease ten years in the future, perhaps through no fault of his or her own, wouldn't you be interested in preventing that?
If you are convinced that your child will have a lifetime sole monogamous relationship with another person who will also have those circumstances, fine. But that likely ain't gonna happen these days.
Perry was absolutely right to do what he did - he should not apologize
Feb '11
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
I think its important to remember that as other commenters have noted an individual may contract HPV even if their behavior is irreproachable because the partner may be an unknowing carrier. A couple may use a barrier method in all encounters and it still does not completely protect a woman from being infected. I asked a gynocologist about what steps could be taken by men but to date there is no test available that a man (even if he wished to be responsible) could have to determine if he is infected. This is why Gardasil is seen as an important step in the reduction of HPV infections. The alarm is also starting to rise in regards to the exploding rate of oral cancers found in young men which are increasingly linked to HPV.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Mark Wilson
StickerShock
And can we please stop comparing public health threats of disesase spread through the air with STDs?
Vaccinating ten year olds becasuse they may get HPV is like giving them insulin because they may get diabetes. · Sep 13 at 9:43am
Diabetes is contagious?
What modes of transmission would provide justification for the government to get involved with widespread public vaccination? Is the the mode of transmission that's most important, or the pervasiveness and danger of the particular disease? · Sep 13 at 9:50am
The latter, of course.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Basil Fawlty
Nathaniel Wright: First...a mandatory Polio vaccine saved a generation.
Second...mandatory MMR shots prevent the massive spread of illness in our schools.
Third...stopping the spread of disease is in the public interest and local governments have the authority under state constitutions and the Constitution to do things like this.
Fourth...parents can OPT OUT. The power of the individual to make a medical decision is still there. The Texas bill provides and pays for the vaccine for those who cannot afford it. · Sep 13 at 8:23am
I can't think of a single example of government coercion that isn't promoted on the basis of it's beneficial results. · Sep 13 at 8:41am
Perhaps, not. But if coercion in a particular case does have an obvious benefit -- e.g., locking up criminals -- then, the coercion may be justified.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Erik Larsen: Arrrgh. I feel some people here still don't understand this. There is huge morbidity and mortality from HPV - not only genital tract malignancies, but also (as someone else mentioned) head and neck malignancies.
Vaccines to prevent illness and death for this virus are best administered at a young age. The risk factors for acquiring the disease generally occur at a later date, and then the person will be protected.
If you knew your kid could get a disease ten years in the future, perhaps through no fault of his or her own, wouldn't you be interested in preventing that?
If you are convinced that your child will have a lifetime sole monogamous relationship with another person who will also have those circumstances, fine. But that likely ain't gonna happen these days.
Perry was absolutely right to do what he did - he should not apologize · Sep 13 at 10:19am
Amen -- with one proviso. He would have done better to have done it through the legislature.
Edited on September 13, 2011 at 7:50pmRe: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
liberal jim
Paul A. Rahe
liberal jim
Paul A. Rahe
liberal jim
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
p 13 at 4:25am
And vaccinating against diseases likely to be fatal which young people through no fault of their own are apt to be exposed to is good public policy when done at the state level. · Sep 13 at 5:52am
I do not have a great deal of knowledge about Marx but would expect most Marxist to support a coerced vaccination program. Perhaps I am wrong about this. I find it difficult to understand why a supporter of limited government would term the the usurpation of parental and/or individual rights when public welfare is not endangered "good public policy." If the public welfare is not endangered no government involvement is needed or desirable. Once again where do you draw your line? When it seems good to a board of college professors? I do not consider myself or any government official more concerned or qualified than a parent. Any expertise needed to make a good decision is readily available. · Sep 13 at 6:36am
There was no such usurpation. Parents could opt out.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
liberal jim
Paul A. Rahe
liberal jim
Paul A. Rahe
liberal jim
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
I find it difficult to understand why a supporter of limited government would term the the usurpation of parental and/or individual rights when public welfare is not endangered "good public policy." If the public welfare is not endangered no government involvement is needed or desirable. Once again where do you draw your line? When it seems good to a board of college professors? I do not consider myself or any government official more concerned or qualified than a parent. Any expertise needed to make a good decision is readily available. · Sep 13 at 6:36am
Take a close look at the article cited in #48, above, and look at #69 as well. The public welfare is at stake.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Bachmann's claim that the vaccination program is "unconstitutional" depends on a Living Constitution theory. She has destroyed her credibility as a constitutional originalist.
Specifically, her argument only works under "substantive due process," ie, the notion that the 14th Amendment deprives the states of power to infringe on unspecified "liberty interests" (that is the term she used in the debate). That is the same theory that gave us Roe v. Wade.
Edited on September 13, 2011 at 7:38pmRe: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
StickerShock
Basil Fawlty
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
I
Good point, Basil.
And can we please stop comparing public health threats of disesase spread through the air with STDs?
Vaccinating ten year olds becasuse they may get HPV is like giving them insulin because they may get diabetes. · Sep 13 at 9:4
Vaccinating ten-year-olds because they would otherwise be quite likely to get HPV later in life is not at all like giving them insulin because they may get diabetes. The former will save them from cancer; the latter will do them no good at all. Read #48 and #69, above.
There is a great deal at stake. Given the proportion of people who get HPV, the fact that most of them have no idea they have been infected, and the likelihood that many of those who have not been sexually active before marriage will get the disease from the individual they marry -- this is a legitimate public health issue.
Perry may have been wrong to act by way of an executive order; he may even have been wrong to choose opt-out rather than opt-in. But he was not wrong to press the issue.
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Basil Fawlty
Paul A. Rahe
Basil Fawlty
Paul A. Rahe
If a vaccine against HIV/AIDS is developed, should it be mandatory for all children? · Sep 13 at 5:47am
If it works and has no dangerous side effects, yes. It would contribute greatly to eliminating a plague. · Sep 13 at 5:59am
I'm still trying to understand why the government telling us what to do in the medical realm is a good thing, but the government telling us what to do in the economic realm, the education realm, or just about any other realm you care to mention is a bad thing. Is it the presumption that people are just more incompetent about medical matters and need the government to make their medical decisions for them? · Sep 13 at 7:43am
Public health has always been considered a legitimate governmental concern. In the 18th century, the sick were quarantined. Today, the government presses parents to have their children inoculated against polio, measles, and whooping cough because, when they get it, they pose a threat to others. HPV is not as easily transmitted, but see #48 and #69. Our children are quite likely to be infected with it.
Jan '11
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Paul A. Rahe
Erik Larsen: Arrrgh. I feel some people here still don't understand this. There is huge morbidity and mortality from HPV - not only genital tract malignancies, but also (as someone else mentioned) head and neck malignancies.
Vaccines to prevent illness and death for this virus are best administered at a young age. The risk factors for acquiring the disease generally occur at a later date, and then the person will be protected.
If you knew your kid could get a disease ten years in the future, perhaps through no fault of his or her own, wouldn't you be interested in preventing that?
If you are convinced that your child will have a lifetime sole monogamous relationship with another person who will also have those circumstances, fine. But that likely ain't gonna happen these days.
Perry was absolutely right to do what he did - he should not apologize · Sep 13 at 10:19am
Amen -- with one proviso. He would have done better to have done it through the legislature. · Sep 13 at 10:25am
Edited on Sep 13 at 10:50 am
Agreed - I haven't been following the details of this thx
Jun '10
Re: Michele Bachmann Is Offended
Mark Wilson
StickerShock
And can we please stop comparing public health threats of disesase spread through the air with STDs?
Vaccinating ten year olds becasuse they may get HPV is like giving them insulin because they may get diabetes. · Sep 13 at 9:43am
Diabetes is contagious?
What modes of transmission would provide justification for the government to get involved with widespread public vaccination? Is the the mode of transmission that's most important, or the pervasiveness and danger of the particular disease? · Sep 13 at 9:50am
Type 2 Diabetes, like HPV, is a disease that can be avoided by behavior.
Obviously it is the mode of transmission that's most important. Regardless of its virulence, if Americans can completely avoid contracting a disease through their behavior, why in the world should they be vaccinated?
The danger a disease poses varries greatly. Disease impacts different categories of people in a wide variety of ways. That's why flu vaccines are not mandated. I'll survive the flu, but an immunocompromised person, or elderly person who suffers from COPD, may not.