Lord of the Flies, in Florida
I don't normally pay much attention to the crime blotters and sensational headlines, But the murder of a 15 year old in Florida by six other mostly teens, in a particularly gruesome way, reminiscent of Rasputin's murder, in that they kept not quite pulling it off and blythely had to go at it again and again, is deeply disturbing.
Disturbing not just in the horror that empathy brings, but in amazement at the utter depravity this exhibits. Only two of the participants had any motive at all, and those motives would have been thin even for far lesser actions.
Nor were the accused hardened criminals with long rap sheets -- these were just high school kids (though apparently very much of the piercing and tattoo subset) who seem to have decided it would be good entertainment to cavalierly kill another teen against whom others held a grudge.
It speaks to a scary moral vacuum in them, and makes you wonder, and worry, if these so far seemingly farily average kids were willing to do such barbaric evil, how typical are they, and what made them thus?
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Nov '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
"Every new generation is an invasion of little barbarians that must be civilized before it's too late."
- Will Durant
Secularists would have us believe that secularism is merely an appeal and more close adherence to logic and reason... which it largely is, looked at through that narrow prism. However, it neglects the soul and denies the divine origin of rights and morality. Hence, each man is left to justify his own morality and find his own meaning in life. Of course, this is no great revelation to the thoughtful Ricochetois. But it does lead to questions of what life really means, what might be the point of life in the first place, and, ultimately, what return there is for restraining oneself. Without the deep meaning that most religions at least attempt to bring to life, it might be a bit easier to have less respect for life itself.... hence, murder as a way to deal with conflict, or even, more ominously, a form of recreation, does not seem beyond the pale.
Has a civilization ever thrived or even survived without a religious belief to underpin the moral code taht keeps order in that civilization?
Sep '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
This happened in the town where I went to high school just a few days ago.
A 20 year old killed his parents over $5 in gas money.
Nov '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Copperfield, I agree; I don't see how secular arguments don't, in the end, logically devolve into utilitarianism. The utility of God, if you don't mind my putting it that way, is that it provides an objective code of good and bad, and doesn't leave it up to personal whim.
Mar '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
The death penalty is too good for this kind of scum. This crime wasn't committed because of godlessness. They did it out of cruelty and stupidity, something we find in all cultures regardless of religiosity. How anyone can deny the necessity and justice of the death penalty after seeing cases like this, I'll never know. It kills me that people like this are allowed to go on living.
Edited on Apr 23, 2011 at 1:30pmFeb '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Bail was set? They might let him walk the streets? Then again, as the suspect says "Who else would I shoot?"
Mark Belling Fan: This happened in the town where I went to high school just a few days ago.
A 20 year old killed his parents over $5 in gas money. · Apr 23 at 12:53pm
"When asked about the rifle, Markov stated that he had been shooting the gun inside of the house for practice," the complaint states. "When asked what his plan was for the gun, Dennis Markov admitted to buying the gun to possibly shoot his parents, stating, 'Who else would I shoot?' "
At a bond hearing Thursday, bail was set at $1 million with conditions that he not possess any weapons, not leave Wisconsin and surrender his passport. Markov was still in jail as of Thursday afternoon.
Feb '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Abdiel: It kills me that people like this are allowed to go on living. · Apr 23 at 1:29pm
Edited on Apr 23 at 01:30 pm
And released before they are fifty.
Oct '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Heather, while I'm generally supportive of your line of thought, it begs the question "which God?".. Moses' God? Muhammad's Allah?. I think that you are correct that it moves us beyond personal whim, but unfortunately, towards societal whims?
One reason I have the most profound respect for the Jews is because their tradition encapsulates the idea of God as reasonable.... why else would they spend so much time in negotiation with Him? Why would Jacob be permitted to wrestle with God? The Jews, and derivatively Christians relate to God on a personal level, and aided by tradition, try to determine, not so much His will, but His reason.
Oct '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Not to be too depressing on the eve of this most hopeful holiday, but isn't this the normal state of Man absent civilisation? These feral children have been deprived of all forms of moral formation, and hence have reverted to the ancestral form. As juveniles, they are unlikely to face serious consequences (yes, they may be tried as adults for such a heinous crime, but they probably don't know it), and they expect their records to be expunged when they reach “maturity”.
This is a tragedy for all involved, but at the risk of “blaming society”, doesn't the ultimate culpability rest with those who have patiently dismantled the moral framework of Western culture over the last half century, along with the institutions which instilled its morality into each generation?
Mar '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
John Walker:
This is a tragedy for all involved, but at the risk of “blaming society”, doesn't the ultimate culpability rest with those who have patiently dismantled the moral framework of Western culture over the last half century, along with the institutions which instilled its morality into each generation? · Apr 23 at 1:44pm
Beg to differ John ;). I won't bear responsibility for this savagery. They chose to do this. I can guarantee you these people weren't atheists. They definitely aren't educated enough to think on complex subjects like that. They may even consider themselves Christians. But religion doesn't factor into the thinking of these kinds of people either. They're just sick. They don't have empathy.
The only responsibility the rest of us have, those who do have the capacity for empathy, is to remove these sociopaths from our world. It's our culture of tolerance that allows these monsters to flourish. It is morally wrong to show this kind of capitulation to evil. Sociopaths don't deserve rights. Tolerance is our only crime.
Edited on Apr 23, 2011 at 2:00pmNov '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
I think it's called original sin. This is why we celebrate Easter; we believe we have been delivered from this. Not that all or even many of us are necessarily prone to this level or type of evil, but we are all prone to some kinds of evil, each in our own ways.
Dec '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
An external moral authority. It's essential to a functioning Republic, although it isn't necessary that everyone have one, just that we can only handle a rare man who thinks that he is a god unto himself.
Feb '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
I'm remain continually amazed at how many people have told me that they have been threatened by their children.
That is, they're told that if they do this or that, then the child will call the state and social workers and police will come and haul the parents away to jail and take the child to a place that lacks unpleasant parental commands.
Or so the child thinks. I'm sure reality is rather different. The point is that children somehow get the idea that they can't be punished or disciplined.
How does that happen? Well, I remember long ago reading a quote from Sumner Redstone- the guy who then ran MTV- stating that the programming was intended to break down parental teachings. I've read numerous times that schools give children lessons in various forms of political correctness- and also tell the kids not to inform their parents. I could go on, etc...
Basically, in a weird sort of way, I blame society for this murder. Not the "Christian" society that gets blamed for everything though it hasn't existed for decades but the actual PC society that really does exist.
That society has failed. Plainly.
Dec '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
I was shocked by this story until I heard it happened in Florida. Florida has more weird goings on than any other place in the nation.
And I speak as a Californian.
Jan '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
When I was a kid, the tale of Lizzie Borden was well known. How quaint, right? That a double murder would be known for generations across a continent?
Nearby in Alberta, Canada, two years ago a 23 year old guy and his 12 year old girlfriend killed her brother and parents. One disturbed girl.
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20070709/mh_murder_070709/
Apr '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
I'm with John on this one. How man thousands of years was humanity characterized by tyranny, oppression, slavery and cruelty? How long has humanity embraced individual liberty, natural law, republicanism (small r), and "civilization?" There are many places left in our world where savagery and butchery are a daily occurrence still. What is the more natural state of man? What state do we strive to achieve and fight every day to instill? I don't remember the original attribution, but I'm a firm believer in "a society is only three meals away from anarchy." We can quibble about the time frame, but I think the basis holds. Proper values, guidance, and principles are what separates man from beast. Absent those, our baser instincts are all that we have. A choice still, yes, but with increasingly unsurprising results. That being said, keep hope alive! ;)
Apr '11
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
This is the default state of man. We are a fallen people who require effort and education to overcome our natural inclinations. Stories like this one from Florida are becoming more common. As the nation discourages any norms, we revert to being ruled by our desires, and not our aspirations.
Dec '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Unlike animals humans aren't born with any of the instincts needed to survive. That includes morality. Children are monsters. Always have been, always will be.
May '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
How do religious theists know that the normative propositions found within their holy texts are true? A religious text may offer a moral code, but they do not contain proofs of the normative propositions within them. Take "Thou shall not steal." Its prima facie an agreeable, normative proposition, but how do theists know its true? I discuss of this within the comments of a recent blog post of mine.
May '10
Re: Lord of the Flies, in Florida
Heather, I had the same reaction to that horrifying video of two black girls (women?) beating a white girl to point that she went into seizures--in a MacDonalds. In front of others.
I've had a knot in my stomach ever since.
How did we reach the point of this barbarism?
Have we any hope at all of turning back the tide? I begin to fear not--at least not without a dramatic act of God.