Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Hello, fellow readers of Ricochet,
I've been lurking around the edges for some time, reading all the posts and listening to the Ricochet podcasts, but this is my first post!
I'm a conservative living in Brooklyn, NY, and I work in Manhattan. As a result, everyone I know is a liberal (almost. To be fair, I used to be liberal, too. What happened? That's another post, perhaps.) Especially on Facebook. There are some friends that I know I can have a political discussion with on Facebook, and others that I try to avoid getting into it with. Sometimes, it's really just not worth it.
This afternoon one of my Facebook friends, who is an actual friend in real life, posted a link to this:
I really wanted to reply to my friend, "Reagan eliminated loopholes for millionaires while reducing the top marginal rate from 90% to 28%! Obama wants to raise taxes on everyone making more than $250,000."
But I thought better of it. I'm not sure she knows exactly how conservative I am, and she is the one, after all, who told me about the wonderful restaurant she and her husband went to last year, while they were in Italy, the one where the chef sang and there was a giant portrait of Mao on the wall (this was specifically one of the reasons it was a wonderful restaurant). She's not a communist, of course. But let's just say she doesn't exactly appreciate Reagan the way I do.
Last year, when a (now former) friend in real life posted a New Yorker article about the Ground Zero Mosque, I did chime in. He ended up strongly implying that I was a bigot and that I was harmful to the country. Then he defriended me and I haven't spoken to him since, even though we live only eight blocks from each other.
So I didn't write anything in reply to my friend about Reagan. She and her husband were guests at our wedding (there were only 20 in attendance). I don't think she would have the same reaction as my other friend, but I don't want to ruffle her feathers, either.
The former friend who called me a bigot helpfully explained to my wife in an email that there were certain views that made people "undesirable" as friends for him. I find this strange. I didn't find it hard being his friend, looking after his sick cat for 10 days (which involved administering medication twice daily in both liquid and pill form) while he was on a family vacation, just because he had different politics than me. Actually it was pretty great, he had cable and a big flat screen (we have neither) so I watched a lot of Fox in his house while playing with his cat. (And to be fair, he looked after our cats when we were away too. Other than the part about him calling me a bigot an excommunicating us from his life, he was a nice guy...)
How do you cope with friends who don't share political views with you?
With kindest regards,
Albert
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Comments:
Jun '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
I think Mollie has the correct answer. My two dearest friends are politically far left. I enjoy political discussion very much, and during the 2008 presidential campaign attempted to discuss the issues with each of them. When their political views were challenged, neither could mount a rational defense, and both would become visibly agitated and angry. So now, we agree to avoid politics, and have remained close friends. Their identities are closely tied to left wing politics. It's emotional for both of them, not something they can defend with a logical argument. I imagine it's an uncomfortable position.
Mar '11
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Too much depends on context for me to give you a general set of rules that are always applicable in these circumstances.
Rather, some questions to keep in mind:
-How good a friend are we talking to and about? A life long friendship built over decades of trust and love, or a casual friendship with someone you see from time to time?
-What is the setting of the question? Are we at home? At work? Out at a bar or ballgame or other social occasion?
-Who else is in the audience and how well do I know them?
-What is the temperament of the other person when making the comment or asking the question? Is this a mood that is open to discussion and debate?
-Will entering this conversation unnecessarily upset a special occasion for someone else (we all know THAT GUY who refuses to even let a joke pass without a political tirade, regardless of the circumstances. This is especially unseemly in political mixed-company).
Jan '11
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Austin's another place where people can live their whole lives without having their liberal religion questioned. When I'm with just one or two people, no problem, we just talk about other things; although I do sometimes have a little fun with one friend who is so totally uninterested in current events that she often doesn't know what she's supposed to believe. If I bring up something she hasn't heard about, she'll usually take a conservative position. (In the interests of maintaining the friendship, I never point this out.)
What I find especially difficult is being in a group of six or seven friends and acquaintances who suddenly decide to go into a session of mouthing liberal pieties and agreeing with each other and enjoying the coziness of groupthink. Tact and silence are not my strong points! I usually wait for some particularly stupid generality and then ask, very innocently, "For instance?" and enjoy the sudden silence and quick change of subject.
I like to think that God made liberals for Entertainment.
May '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
This is a very timely post for me. I just lost my best friend over political differences; I'm kind of in mourning today.
Facebook is a minefield for a conservative with liberal friends. I scroll through all the lefty stuff - it's all pretty cliche', and it's all very angry and self-righteous, so I don't cross swords out in the open with those I disagree with.
But I do want to engage with my lefty friends when I think I have a point to make - so I've emailed invitation to a discussion, and it's just blown up in my face. Arguing over politics is no way to maintain a friendship.
All I have now is Ricochet.
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Albert, welcome! Where are you in Brooklyn? I'm in Park Slope where the Greens outnumber the Democrats, so I'm used to life behind enemy lines. I don't think I've lost any friends (yet) over politics. I'm very upfront about my views - with a relatively new friend, I'll often introduce the topic with a little self-deprecation (eg, "I must warn you that I'm a right-wing fanatic"). But that's just to break the ice; beyond that, I assert my views politely but unapologetically. None of us has anything to apologize for, even if our views aren't popular over at the Park Slope Food Coop. As several others on this thread have pointed out, a genuine friend should respect your conservative views provided you're willing to respect his liberal views.
Jun '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
America is a great country, Albert. We are an independent people who, at heart, are kind and generous. Conservatives too are caring of the needy and desparate. Only a very few Americans do not believe in a societal safety net for the least amongst us. Those unfortunate souls include mainly the physically and mentally handicapped and small children. The more we give to the able bodied, the less we have for the truly needy. If one wishes to help another get off his back, one can not while on his back himself. When about to take off on an airplane, the flight attendant demonstrates the emergency equipment. As they show the passengers the oxygen masks that will drop in the event of a loss in cabin pressure, they always say, "Put the mask on yourself first. You will not be able to help anyone to breathe if you, yourself can not breathe either" If we do not maintain a strong economy and unincumbered balance sheet, with only debts which we can afford to pay, we will be on our backs just like those we would like to help, but no longer can. Try telling your friends that, perhaps?
Nov '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
I am so sorry. I've lost a few friends over politics through the years, but never a best friend. I am not surprised that it would happen, although I think it is sad. To me, the contrary condition is more surprising: How is it that people are sometimes able to maintain close relationships (including marriages!) when they disagree about politics? So I read these threads with great attention, looking for some kind of clue that might make that possible for me and thus open up lots of new possible friendships
Dec '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Losing a friend is terribly sad. Living with liberal relations may be even harder. I'm from a large family. Only one of my siblings remains liberal (the rest of us were liberal through much of our adulthood). The one remaining liberal made sure to get my Catholic FDR-Democrat liberal mother an absentee ballot in the 2008 election so she would be sure to vote for Barack Obama in(?) -- Ohio. Yeah, it wouldn't have made a difference in the election, but it still requires tremendous self-restraint and forgiveness on the part of us conservatives.
Interestingly, there have been hard feelings blow up between siblings because some of us refuse to engage in political conversation with the liberal. It's a lose/lose proposition.
I'll never understand the Carville/Matalin union!
Oct '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Welcome Albert, and I hope you do post about how you became a conservative because I find that interesting. I think you have to learn to pick your battles. You just can't have a great political conversation with everyone. If you can't talk to them without it degenerating into a fight then you have to avoid it before it starts. I think you also have to follow their lead, that is, go as far as their comfort level allows. If they don't feel threatened talking to you then let them raise the issue and be ready to share your views. Bill Buckley was a great example of how to be civil with people you disagree with and you should look up what liberals have said about their encounters with him. It will help you a lot. Like others have said, too, you need to have something else that you share in common with your friends.
Dec '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Lots of good advice above. I'd just add that one thing that has helped me tremendously is to keep in mind Dennis Prager's mantra that clarity is more important than agreement. It's amazing how much grief is saved when you stop trying to win the argument and focus instead on clearly defining the precise point of departure. Aside from reducing friction, this really is better for everyone, since it encourages us to examine assumptions more fully and understand our own positions.
The truth is, it's rare to change someone's mind on the basis of a single argument, no matter how convincingly we present it. People just don't work that way. There are egos and world views at stake, and they are rarely won over by brute intellectual force. We have a better chance of changing minds when we are less confrontational, being content to plant a few seeds, shine a little light, then be on our way. People will come around, or not, in their own time and way. They are more apt to get there as a result of their own heavy lifting, rather than by being mugged intellectually.
Edited on October 11, 2011 at 8:43pmOct '11
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Lucy Pevensie
Actually, the worst story I heard was from Minnesota. It was from James Lileks, on a podcast, who talked about people refusing to allow their children to be friends with his daughter because of his politics. I think that is absolutely unconscionable. · Oct 11 at 8:03am
That is pretty bad, Lucy. I would just add, for evidence that New York is still in the running for worst place, that back in the summer of 2008 my wife and I were at a friend's engagement party and my wife was talking about the election to someone or other, a friend of a friend, and mentioned that she was going to vote for McCain. "Wow, you must be really stupid," responded this virtual stranger.
Oct '11
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Carroll Gardens! I looked at the voter rolls last year in my district (Yvette Clark is my congressional representative). 92% Dems, 5% WFP, 3% Republicans, or something like that;-)
Aug '11
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
When you think of them both as political mercenaries, it all becomes clear.
Apr '11
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
I continually ask if, given our $15 trillion debtload, if we can actually afford whatever their expensive liberal cause-du-jour?
Their eternal answer: 'We can't not afford it!'
Edited on October 11, 2011 at 9:21pmAug '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
I've dealt with the same situation. I have a lot of friends from college that went Left due to the whole social justice / anti-war scene in college. For the most part I try to avoid discussing politics with them because 1) it goes no where, and 2) they aren't willing to have an honest dialogue. It ends up being more about their smugness over holding the "correct" views on issues than it does about gaining a deeper understanding of issues on either side.
Some advice I'd reiterate:
Aug '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Of course, all of this is advice I need to take in again as I, too, deal with friends fawning over the Occupy Wall Street nonsense.
Part of me wants to speak up and express my frustration and disagreement. The other part of me knows it's not going to do much. Perhaps I'll keep looking for the right opportunity.
Jul '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
Carver
There is something to it. I believe it is the fear of ostracism - which to the vestigal tribal (liberal) mind is the same as the fear of death.
This seems to be an excellent explanation as to why blacks are loath to vote for a black conservative.
Jul '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
I'll echo liberal jim and King Prawn. I used to share My views with such passion and conviction that Those Who agreed with Me became ready to conquer the hill, but those that disagreed felt assaulted on all fronts.
Then I came across Socrates and His perspective that He thought of Himself as a midwife to People's thoughts. I thought that rather profound and decided to go in that direction.
Ever since learning and developing skills to ask leading questions to My conclusions, Our interactions have actually become conversations and not battles. (Yes, there are liberals in Texas.... We call them Californians.)
Oct '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
ljt: Isn't the answer and I say this sincerely :
that conservatives believe liberals are at best misguided, silly,ill-informed - at worst stupid. and liberals believe conservatives are EVIL?
That is in my opinion the difference. To see the two mindsets analyzed in detail, read On the Genealogy of Morals.
Aug '10
Re: Liberals, Reagan, Friends
My family used to live in Park Slope, Brooklyn, and I kept my mouth shut at parties when conversation turned to politics. It's a neighborhood where there was once a group going around putting real-looking "parking tickets" on SUVs, berating the owners for driving vehicles that were destroying the planet. My wife and I still have very good (liberal) friends who live there, and we have stayed friends because (a) neither they nor we are strident and (b) we have an unspoken agreement to never discuss politics.
As far as debating politics goes, I remember what Jay Nordlinger told me at a National Review event in Manhattan years ago. (This took place at a bar where the conservatives were so excited to be among their own "kind", it was like when the little people came together to make "The Wizard of Oz".) We were discussing being conservatives in NYC, and Jay said that trying to bring someone over to your way of thinking is "a fool's errand". I agree, and I think that discussing politics on Facebook is a mistake. If you must post something pointedly political, restrict the viewing to those who are like-minded.