Liars and Lying
I realize this is a little esoteric. But Princeton's Robbie George has a fascinating entry on the Mirror of Justice website about the morality of lying. It's specifically about the group that went into Planned Parenthood pretending to be a pimp looking for abortions for underage sex workers, but the implications are far beyond that. Robbie argues that the Catholic teaching considers lying intrinsically evil. That means forbidden in all circumstances.
It's a long debate. There is another line of thought that says it's only a lie if the person you are not telling the truth to is entitled to the truth. But that line was eliminated by Pope Benedict XVI in the recent catechism.
If Robbie is right, everything from spying to undercover journalism becomes suspect. The comment section is fascinating. Someone brought up a priest who made fake baptismal certificates to save Jews from the Nazi death camps.
Anyway, it's a real debate. I incline more to the other line of argument -- that it's not a lie if the person is not entitled to the truth -- but Robbie suggests I am sharply at odds with my church. Love to hear comments on the article and the comments there.
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Sep '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Bill,
I don't have time to jump in just yet, but Ed Feser has been all over this and I highlighted it in a post about lying to kids about Santa Claus. The only caution I make is that Robbie George -- a fine fellow -- is a devotee, I think, of the "new" natural law school of thought of Finnis, Grisez et al which has a (I'm overgeneralizing) Kantian categorical imperative element to it.
There are a few schools of natural law thought, and I'll be interested to see if Feser jumps on it shortly. Thanks for highlighting this one, though. That said, I think most Catholics are unaware of just how circumscribed lying is.
Nov '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Question: Are there any Jews hiding in your attic?
Answer: No.
Corrie ten Boom and her family were faced with this scenario in WWII Holland. They decided to help the Jewish people secretly and face the consequences. As a result of their actions, they were sent to the death camps, and Corrie's sister and father died in the camps and in prison, respectively.
Also they were asked, when they had to surrender their radios, if this was the only radio in their house. They turned in one and kept one hidden. They did many other things like this, which bothered their consciences, but they had decided to help God's people. The Nazis were not entitled to the truth.
http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-Place-Corrie-Ten-Boom/dp/0553256696
Nov '10
Re: Liars and Lying
What I find fascinating is that when arguing Kant, nobody can ever come up with a better example than Nazis at the doorstep.
Aug '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Should Catholics not then refuse, on conscientious grounds, to swear to tell the truth when giving evidence, on the basis that our faith requires us to do nothing less whether under oath or otherwise and that to differentiate between the courtroom and the world at large suggests that truth is not after all absolute?
Dec '10
Re: Liars and Lying
That's already permitted. You can affirm your intention to state the truth rather than swear it.
Dec '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Everything I know, I learned from Star Trek. From the episode The Savage Curtain:
YARNEK: You are the survivors. The others have run off. It would seem that evil retreats when forcibly confronted. However, you have failed to demonstrate to me any other difference between your philosophies. Your good and your evil use the same methods, achieve the same results. Do you have an explanation?
KIRK: You established the methods and the goals.
YARNEK: For you to use as you chose.
KIRK: What did you offer the others if they won?
YARNEK: What they wanted most. Power.
KIRK: You offered me the lives of my crew.
YARNEK: I perceive. You have won their lives.
Aug '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Hi Stuart, I know that,I see it regularly in my work. But what's the difference? Whether you swear or you affirm, you're accepting that the duty of truthfulness is higher in a courtroom than elsewhere.What self-respecting devout Catholic (or anyone, come to think of it) could accept that?
Re: Liars and Lying
I have a great deal of respect for Robbie George, but I think he is dangerously wrong. The Catholic tradition owes a lot more to Aristotle than to Kant, and in Aristotle prudence is a very great virtue.
Re: Liars and Lying
Let's try something a little more recent than the Thousand Year Reich.
All agree that, if afforded the chance, it would be moral to shoot Jared Lee Loughner as he took aim at Representative Giffords with his Glock 19, saving her and other innocents facing imminent murder.
How could it then be sinful to lie to a lost Loughner asking directions to the Congress on Your Corner event after first noticing his concealed weapon and hearing him mutter something about killing a congreswoman?
I would have gladly told the lie and dialed 911 the moment Jared Lee headed off in the wrong direction.
Sep '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Someone brought up a priest who made fake baptismal certificates to save Jews from the Nazi death camps.
That was Pope Pius XII, though there's contention in the thread as to whether that is a matter of historical record.
I'm already running late, but the opportunity to riff on a Paul Rahe comment is just too tempting to ignore. Its not an esoteric debate. Christopher Kaczor and Thomas Sherman SJ wrote an excellent guide called Thomas Aquinas on the Cardinal Virtues - Edited and Explained for Everyone and many of these points are touched on in the entry on lying. I'll turn to it when I return on Wednesday.
Sep '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Unless of course an enterprising Ricochet editor can draft Ed Feser or Christopher Kaczor into a guest columnist spot for a week to take questions and comments.
May '10
Re: Liars and Lying
A great question.
My first thought is that it's hard to argue lying is never permissible while acknowledging that killing can be permissible in self-defense or defense of others. But there is a difference, I suppose. Death itself is not evil. It can separate us from God, but it can also be a necessary step toward salvation (Heaven). Death is also inevitable. Lying, on the other hand, is neither inevitable nor necessary for unification with God.
White lies, kind though they often seem, destroy trust. If you tell your wife she looks good when she's obviously a mess, that makes it more difficult for her to believe you next time she asks. It makes your words less meaningful. People underestimate the power of white lies to affect relationships.
Perhaps the key condition is whether or not trust (an aspect of love) is possible in a particular situation.
I'm not familiar with Church teaching on that branch of ethics. I'll have to look into that.
Nov '10
Re: Liars and Lying
The Catholic position seem untenable because one can think of many situations where it would be immoral to tell the truth to someone not entitled to the truth. If telling the truth places an innocent person in jeopardy, it’s immoral to tell the truth. Catholics can believe whatever they want, I guess. But others would be wise not to entrust any vital secrets to them.
Edited on Feb 15, 2011 at 4:31pmAug '10
Re: Liars and Lying
If you'll forgive me for saying so TeeJaw I can't help noticing that you qualify the proposition that Catholics can believe whatever they want. I guess you may not be sure about that.
Nov '10
Re: Liars and Lying
I’m sure of it.
Re: Liars and Lying
This example is ancient, but has always influenced how I think about the ethics of lying. From Exodus 1:15-21:
In this circumstance, the appropriate action for the God-fearing person was to lie in order to protect life. Is that not essentially, albeit indirectly, what the undercover pimp/prostitute duo was doing?
Nov '10
Re: Liars and Lying
The Supreme Court has said it is Constitutional for police to lie to suspects to get a confession. I’m in agreement with that, and I also believe it is moral for the police to do so.
Aug '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Noted and accepted TeeJaw. I find it's the doing, not the believing, that presents the greater challenge.I suspect that applies across the spectrum of credos, religious or otherwise.
Nov '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
In this circumstance, the appropriate action for the God-fearing person was to lie in order to protect life. Is that not essentially, albeit indirectly, what the undercover pimp/prostitute duo was doing? · Feb 15 at 4:34pm
Yes, indeed. And Planned Parenthood was not done in by the lie told by the undercover duo but by its own criminal intent.
May '10
Re: Liars and Lying
Charles, you're correct that a Christian shouldn't need a vow to be honest in court. But it wouldn't be wrong to take a vow which is in keeping with good morals. While we are all inherently responsible to live by the moral truths of which we are aware, a vow is a promise to fulfill that responsibility.
If you tell someone you'll do something that you should be doing anyway, you're doubly guilty if you fail to do it, right? Breaking your word is a separate offense.
The vow to be completely honest in court while holding one's hand on the Bible is a holdover from a culture long lost. I expect most Americans think of it as an archaic formality, rather than a true promise to God.