Let's Talk Kill Lists
Fred Cole ·
June 12, 2012 at 3:18pm
So the story is out there. Kill lists. Baseball cards. The President making the final decision on dropping bombs on people, some of them American citizens, often in civilian neighborhoods, in countries we are not officially at war with, on his own authority.
Is this something you're okay with?
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Comments:
Mar '12
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
There is a good point here. Suppose a journalist, opposed to the administration, attempts to interview a terrorist in Pakistan. (A very foolish journalist, but bear with me for the sake of argument.) An airstrike against the terrorist "happens" to kill the journalist too. Collateral damage, or a cover for murder?
There need to be safeguards, especially considering that the current administration is somewhat Nixonian in its approach to power.
Nevertheless, this is not the proper role for the judiciary. The role of a judge is to render a judgment after both sides of a case have been argued before them. The terrorist cannot be represented by an attorney in this situation. You would be recruiting a judge for something like police work, -but judges should be neutral.
A better solution would be to have a bipartisan congressional committee review operations. Admittedly this is an imperfect solution, but it provides better checks and balances than having judges review operations. Congresspersons are accountable to voters. Judges are accountable to no one (which is needed in their proper role). Aren't most covert operations already overseen by congressional committee? Does the drone program have congressional oversight? If not, why not?
Jan '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Michael Collins:
Nevertheless, this is not the proper role for the judiciary. ...
A better solution would be to have a bipartisan congressional committee review operations. Admittedly this is an imperfect solution, but it provides better checks and balances than having judges review operations. Congresspersons are accountable to voters. Judges are accountable to no one (which is needed in their proper role). Aren't most covert operations already overseen by congressional committee? Does the drone program have congressional oversight? If not, why not? · 32 minutes ago
What do you mean by "review operations"? Is this prior to the operation taking place or after? If prior to, this is not a role for a congressional committee either but one the Constitution gives to the Executive. If post-mortem, then the Congress already has Armed Service and Intelligence committees that do so.
Nov '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
This is still going on? Jeeze, leave a thread alone for a while and it goes bananas.
Jul '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
The phrase "you pays your money and you takes your chances" applies here. A journalist doesn't get to unilaterally veto national security operations by using him- or herself as a human shield.
May '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Using drones is no less "warfare" than dropping bombs from a B-52 ... except that it is far more precise.
I don't like the death-by-drone strategy .. I think that capture and interrogation are better. But I fail to see how the CinC does *not* have the authority to conduct the war in that manner.
Apr '12
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Disneyland is wise enough to keep its behind the scenes, housekeeping hidden. Seeing Mickey Mouse smoking would tarnish the image if not just that one person in fancy dress but the whole long history of movies with Mickey and the whole Magic Kingdom. Whoever is putting this story in the press is lifting the curtain and destroying the magic of American quiet diplomacy. So if Robert Mugabe finds out there is a White House baseball card featuring him (now there is a kill list I can get behind) why would it be any less ethical for him to pick Obama for his very own kill list? Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Aug '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
tomjedrz
Using drones is no less "warfare" than dropping bombs from a B-52 ... except that it is far more precise.
I don't like the death-by-drone strategy .. I think that capture and interrogation are better. But I fail to see how the CinC does *not* have the authority to conduct the war in that manner. · 12 hours ago
Some weapons dropped from B-52s are just as precise as those fired from drones.
We also drop 'dumb' bombs - in copious quantity.
Dec '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Instugator
tomjedrz
Using drones is no less "warfare" than dropping bombs from a B-52 ... except that it is far more precise.
I don't like the death-by-drone strategy .. I think that capture and interrogation are better. But I fail to see how the CinC does *not* have the authority to conduct the war in that manner. · 12 hours ago
Some weapons dropped from B-52s are just as precise as those fired from drones.
We also drop 'dumb' bombs - in copious quantity. · 4 hours ago
Now that the B1B is to be retired and there are only 20 something B2's and since there haven't been any B-52's built since TR was prez at some point we're going to run out of heavy bombers. Are there technical reasons why airframes like the C-5 or C-17 couldn't be modified to fill the role of the next generation B-52, say the B-552 or B-1752?
May '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
It would be quite inefficient and vulnerable.
Dec '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
ctlaw
It would be quite inefficient and vulnerable. · 1 hour ago
Except that we are running out of operational bombers. If a major conflict starts, 100 or so bombers seems problematic. Given all of our fiscal problems it's unlikely that a new design is feasible not to mention the lead time to develop and make operational. Maybe the B-2 production lines could be restarted but that would also be expensive.
Since the C-5 and C-17 are in production the question is could they be modified to be effective at a reasonable cost ... reduced take-off weights? ... ??? In terms of counter measures, why couldn't they use the same as the B-52's and fly the same kinds of missions.
Maybe the mismatch is too large but where else can we get additional aircraft at a reasonable cost with a reasonable lead time?
Edited on June 15, 2012 at 4:17amJun '12
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
That's because this is not a war in the conventional sense of the word.
Jul '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Instugator
Sisyphus
The laws of war have always applied to all combatants, regardless of citizenship and nationality. Beyond that, I will not rise in defense of this president's conduct of any war.
Concur.
We discussed this on Tommy's post, here.
However, I doubt very much Pres Obama is searching through the White Pages in search of someone to kill.
I will accept that he personally chooses from a list presented to him. This behavior is akin to the Johnson Admin picking targets in Vietnam - it was wrong there, it is wrong here, but only because it is micromanaging.
I make no assumptions on the process applied under Obama because I have no reliable information in that regard. The President's lack of judgment in other areas does not inspire confidence. I do not know where these lists come from, or whose purposes they serve. When CAIR, HAMAS, and the Muslim Brotherhood are vetting our policies, procedures, and training materials for dealing with terrorist threats, why would I expect wisdom on this?