Let's Talk Kill Lists
Fred Cole ·
June 12, 2012 at 3:18pm
So the story is out there. Kill lists. Baseball cards. The President making the final decision on dropping bombs on people, some of them American citizens, often in civilian neighborhoods, in countries we are not officially at war with, on his own authority.
Is this something you're okay with?
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Comments:
Dec '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Yes.
I am now and have always been(back before it was cool and only the Israels were doing it) ok with targeted kill list.
About the only thing I agree with the President on.
Apr '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
I am a strong supporter of killing our enemies from the air or ground, and I don't really care if we get their families in the process either. It would be nice to capture a few for intelligence purposes...but I would rather not second guess the president on this since I have very little information as to our intelligence status.
I think it is good to build up some fear of us in the minds of our enemies and would be enemies...
Nov '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
I can clarify:
Do you object to:
Unmanned drone strikes?
In populated areas?
The assumption that any adult male killed should've been killed?
The baseball card thing?
The president picking targets?
The lack of oversight?
The lack of appeals?
The lack of anything resembling due process?
Dropping bombs on a country we're not at war with?
The power of the president to kill people (including American citizens) that he himself determines should be killed?
Western Chauvinist:
According to the report, the grease spot produced by the strike consisted only of the bad guys and no innocent bystanders.
One additional clarification: That "grease spot" you mentioned is dead human beings.
Dec '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
If you take up arms against the USA and you publicly renounce your citizenship(on youtube no less) you are fair game. Anwar Al-Awlaki was not a citizen of the USA and comparing him to "domestic terrorist" completely distorts the issue.
Anwar Al-Awlaki was an ex-citizen turned foreign combatant. There is no comparison between him and "domestic terrorist" like Timothy Mcvay. McVay, never renounced his citizenship and he was not a foreign combatant. Their situations and how they should have been dealt with were entirely different.
Jun '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Presidents should decide overall strategy and then let field commanders decide the tactics. This story smacks of LBJ approving field operations during the Viet Nam War. And we know how well that worked out.
Edited on June 12, 2012 at 3:49pmJan '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
I am deeply uncomfortable with the notion that a president can -- without oversight from anyone who doesn't work for him -- order the assassination of anyone, anywhere on Earth, so long as he first declares them a terrorist, including American citizens.
Nov '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Here I was thinking they were just clumps of cells.
May '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
When push comes to shove, the check is impeachment.
What troubles me is the government keeps encouraging the paranoia that the next drone strike target will be Glen Beck.
Nov '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Fred Cole
The lack of appeals?· 33 minutes ago
From: Department of Defense
To: Ayman al-Zawahiri
Re: Drone Strikes
Dear Mr. Zawahiri,
Recently the attached list of persons have been designated enemies of the United States of America and targeted for drone strikes. If you feel that any of the named persons have been targeted in error, please respond to this letter by no later than July 1, 2012 with your reasons why a person should not be targeted. Send all correspondence to PO Box 1776 Washington, D.C. 20340. Please remember to allow six to ten days for delivery by mail.
Yours truly,
Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, US Army
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Nov '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
~Paules: Presidents should decide overall strategy and then let field commanders decide the tactics. This story smacks of LBJ approving field operations during the Viet Nam War. And we know how well that worked out. · 42 minutes ago
Edited 41 minutes ago
I thought of that too. Instead of bombing bridges though, we are targeting individuals.
Nov '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Nyadnar17: If you take up arms against the USA and you publicly renounce your citizenship(on youtube no less) you are fair game. Anwar Al-Awlaki was not a citizen of the USA and comparing him to "domestic terrorist" completely distorts the issue.
Anwar Al-Awlaki was an ex-citizen turned foreign combatant. There is no comparison between him and "domestic terrorist" like Timothy Mcvay. McVay, never renounced his citizenship and he was not a foreign combatant. Their situations and how they should have been dealt with were entirely different. · 46 minutes ago
Forgive me, considering how poorly managed our No Fly list is, if I express skepticism about the accuracy of these kill lists. That's the whole point of due process, to determine the guilt or innocence of an individual or indeed if they are even the correct person.
But rather than do the messy work of due process, extradition or even sending in a team of men to capture people, instead we drop a bomb on them, hope that it's the right guy, console ourselves by saying that any adult male there had or coming, and move on.
Nov '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
And who are these people? And what are their crimes? Are we just knocking off people to look like we're doing something? If you kill a guy, then the next guy in line and the next and the next, how long before your targets stop meriting a death sentence? How many are masterminds and how many are drivers and couriers and pizza delivery guys?
Apr '12
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Although I agree with targeting and killing our enemies in wartime, I can't abide the hypocrisy that this president manifests, in which he's appalled by the thought of putting water up an enemy's nose but he's perfectly willing to put a hellfire missile up his nose.
Nov '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Hellfire missiles do not employ crosshairs; snipers do. The latter can pick you out of a crowd; the former cannot. Snipers put their lives at risk; Obama --playing cardsharp--puts himself at small political risk. The families of terrorists are not legitimate targets, and getting killed by a drone does not automatically upgrade you to terrorist status if you didn't have it before. Accepting civilian casualties in a declared war governed by legal restraints against a sovereign state is problematic. But that is very different from denying or concealing or even blaming for their own deaths the non-combatant casualties of what amounts to a program of assassination-by-bombing. At the very least it begins to blur the distinction between us and the terrorists and may well --in the long run, and for several reasons-- prove counterproductive. I think drones have a place in the US arsenal. But their promiscuous use is fraught with hazards.
Feb '12
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
"Is this something you're OK with?"
Yep.
Jan '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
I don't believe I've seen anyone object to the fact that Al-Awlaki was killed, only to the way in which the president ordered his killing without oversight.
No one has alleged that Al-Awlaki or Sameer Khan in the final stages of a plot, though we do know that that was generally what they were up to. We had plenty of opportunity to find some means of giving them due process through, e.g., the military tribunal system in absentia or some other office independent of the White House before sanctioning their killing.
Jan '11
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
They're bad guys, Fred. Worst of the worst. I mean, the president said so.
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
I have serious problems with drone warfare, how it's being employed right now and what the consequences of such warfare are. But even more so, I worry about extrajudicial targeting and killing precisely because of how it could be used by the next guy. I mean, whatever else you want to say about BHO, I think he's earnestly trying to get "the bad guys" (blowback be darned). But this has "mission creep" written all over it, too.
Oct '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
Mothership_Greg
Here I was thinking they were just clumps of cells. · 39 minutes ago
Well said! But not only clumps of cells, but c.o.c. whose intent is the destruction of those of us not following their religion and its cultural control.
Not to make light of the issue of collateral damage in these cases--well yes, to make light of it--but how many friends does an Al-Qaeda nib have these days? How many buddies show up at his birthday bash?
"It's my party and I'll die if I want to." This policy must take its toll on your social life.
Dec '10
Re: Let's Talk Kill Lists
One thing that keeps getting overlooked from the NYT article. The president's goons determined that due process was warranted and their kaffee klatch of death satisfied the constitutional requirement.
I'm pretty good with killing terrorists. I'm not, however, fine with Obama and his boot lickers declaring themselves "due process" incarnate.