Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
I find this type of argument about the futility of gun control very compelling - and I struggle to understand those who do not immediately see the clarity of thought behind it, and the pure practicality of the advice:
Taking guns away from single women who live alone and other law-abiding citizens without mental illnesses will do nothing about the Chos, Loughners, Holmeses or Lanzas. Such people have to be separated from civil society, for the public’s sake as well as their own. But this is nearly impossible because the ACLU has decided that being psychotic is a civil right.
Consequently, whenever a psychopath with a million gigantic warning signs commits a shocking murder, the knee-jerk reaction is to place yet more controls on guns. By now, guns are the most heavily regulated product in America.
It hasn’t worked.
Even if it could work — and it can’t — there are still subway tracks, machetes, fists and bombs. The most deadly massacre at a school in U.S. history was at an elementary school in Michigan in 1927. It was committed with a bomb. By a mentally disturbed man.
How about trying something new for once?
That's Ann Coulter from her latest column "Guns Don't Kill People - The Mentally Ill Do". As with everything she writes, it's worth a read.
Here's a thought experiment I like to try: imagine a world where not a single firearm exists, yet the conditions that breed violence do - the depression, the anger, the desperation, the isolation, and especially, the medication.
What then? Well, we would still have the same level of depression, anger, etc. No change there. And since lots of research points to the depression, anger, medication, etc. as the main driver in the violent and suicidal behavior we are focused on eliminating, it seems obvious to me that the violence and suicide would continue with little or no change.
Internalized psychotic rage doesn't just go away by passing a few laws. Who would claim that it does?
So how do we fix anything by taking away a tool? Same level of depression, anger, and isolation. I try to understand how this point gets lost. I can't.
How do we not see, as a nation, that we have got a serious social and cultural problem on our hands with young males driven to desperate acts of violence by ... what? Well, that is the $64,000 question isn't it?
Video games? Medication? Feminized schools and culture causing feelings of isolation and anxiety in young males? Some or all of the above?
Shouldn't we be talking about that, first and foremost, instead of (or in addition to) guns? Something is not right here.
To really drive this home, is the pro-gun-control side really OK with letting our young males continue to suffer through the anger, the depression, the isolation, as long as they don't have access to legal guns (never mind illegal guns)? That's a little harsh. Where's the caring and compassion for people who need help, especially young males? Are they "less equal"? It sure seems that way to me.
We should define two goals, not just one: helping our young males thrive at a higher rate in our society, and reducing violence and suicide rates that impact society at large. The first would help with the second.
But all we're talking about is guns.
We cannot get to the right answers and fix not just the violence and the death of innocents, but also our wayward young men, if we don't start by asking the right questions and defining what the problem is, and what it is not.
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Jul '10
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Part of your confusion is that you believe the Left is actually talking about solving a problem. The ONLY problem the Left sees is that individuals are armed. That makes them independent. They don't look to the cops for defense but to themselves.
Look at this whole issue clearly, and you see that nothing the Left suggests has even the remotest association with the tragedies that occurred. Columbine had one of the killers using a POST-AWB weapon and carrying 10 magazines. Virginia Tech saw the killer carry NINETEEN magazines in his backpack - all legal sized.
There is too much push-back to outright outlaw them, so they pretent that "we don't want to confiscate your guns". But they do. THAT'S why the noise is about guns - it is what the Left is aiming at - not solving any problem.
Sep '11
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
The problem with a "remove the psychotic from society" argument is determining how people are identified, who does the identifying, where they are removed to, and under what circumstances can they be released?
The existing NISC background check system already blocks purchases of guns by any person who has been committed, or adjudicated as a danger. If we "expand" that definition, we move beyond the hard limits of due process: at present you make the NISC list by order or a court (or court martial).
Do we sacrifice our rights to due process in order to isolate "the crazies"? And what happens when Paul Krugman, David Gregory, and E.J. Dionne characterize us as "the crazies"?
And--oh, yeah--remember that Adam Lanza has never been identified as psychotic. And he didn't buy the guns.
"Isolate the crazies" is a much, much harder--and constitutionally, a lot more scary--concept than most people think it is.
Sep '12
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
I agree totally with Devereau -- if it's not guns used to satisfy anger, it will be knives, or clubs, or rocks. Violence has been occuring since the beginning of the history of man; only the methods used to satisfy the urge for violence have changed. The lefties are totally about CONTROL. The lefties hate that gun owners control their lives and are able to provide for their own protection. More importantly, however, this is about protection from tyranny. That is the true purpose of the Second Amendment -- protection from tyranny coming from within. The path Dear Leader is currently taking, in all aspects of our lives, clearly is within that definition of tyranny.
Also, I agree with John Murdoch. You will never be able to isolate the "crazies". More importantly, who is to to decide? Do I want my left-wing neighbors to be able to report me to the "authorities" in order to have me classified as a "crazy" in order to satisfy their political agenda? No way. The answer is clearly that people should be able to control their own destiny and protect themselves - with guns if necessary.
Nov '12
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
"Feminized schools and culture causing feelings of isolation and anxiety in young males?"
This comment belongs on the post below on women in the wilderness. Why should it matter to any male how many women are learning to read or going to school with him? It always makes me cringe when this subject comes up, and it comes up weirdly often.
Otherwise, yes, Adam Lanza was targeted by school security and psychologists because he was NOT a problem...which is probably why he became one later. No logic to such a sitution whatsoever, these days not even bullies get treated so roughly, yet this shy kid has his life turned into a police state many years before the shootings. I can't figure out why this situation hasn't raised more questions and more outrage.
Other commenters are on point with the definitions problem of mental illness. I have friends in the field and have worked briefly in medical, and besides the every broadening, vague definitions of mental illness, I noticed at one job that there weren't even insurance codes for "homicidal ideation." But the profession stands to make more money and patients if they don't intervene.
Jul '10
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
I'm against this talk of being tougher on mentally ill. What percentage or murders do they commit? And should depressed or traumatized soldiers similarly be barred from owning weapons?
Oct '12
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Two thoughts -
1. I know of no research that points to meds as a driver of violence. Yes, going off anti-depressants suddenly can cause re-bound depression symptoms, one of which is suicidality--but that's not the same thing as a causing violence. If psych medication caused violence, then there would be a lot more violent acts than there are.
2. Yes, the mentally ill are over-represented in violent crimes and mass shootings. However, that doesn't mean that most mentally ill people are going to engage in a mass shooting. Typically, they hurt their family members.
Ok, three thoughts -
3. Be very afraid of pushing the idea of having doctors report if patients are mentally ill (most MDs have only the most basic training in this area). This is a huge assault on medical privacy and doctor/patient confidentiality. Once breached for this problem, it will be difficult if not impossible to put the horse back in the barn.
Jun '10
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Jeff, I like your phrase "helping our young males thrive." This is a great goal for us as families, churches, and individuals.
Jul '10
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Well, perhaps not a huge percentage. But of the more memorable mass killings, and there are a LOT that are not reported by the media because they didn't involved guns, pretty much ALL of the perps were seriously mentally ill. Furthermore, there were all manner of attempts to get them help - to no avail.
Truth is we have no facilities to deal with the criminally insane. The serious paranoid schizo's aren't quite that hard to find - although no system will get them ALL. Still, most of them could be identified. Trouble is there is no way to then take reasonable care of them while protecting society. In the end they commit some heinous crime, at which time they are tried in the courts, found mentally able to stand trial, and sent to jail - not the place for them.
Mental health is the elephant in the room. No one wants to talk about it, but it is a real and pressing problem.
Jan '11
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Steyn, as usual, has an interesting perspective. Your thought experiment has a name - Britian.
Jun '10
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Water Chestnut: "Feminized schools and culture causing feelings of isolation and anxiety in young males?"
This comment belongs on the post below on women in the wilderness. Why should it matter to any male how many women are learning to read or going to school with him? It always makes me cringe when this subject comes up, and it comes up weirdly often.
Hair trigger much? My reading of what Jeff said involves the very real situation where a male child can graduate from high school without ever having encountered a male teacher or administrator. Ya know, the whole "role model" thing.
Jun '10
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
One challenge. Crimes of passion are more easily lethal with more lethal tools (especially ones operates at a distance and requires only the energy of contracting a finger). How much does this contribute to murder/crime?
Well, if someone were to point a gun at me, I would react very differently than someone showing me a knife or club. The odds change radically.
In the movie Grand Canyon, Kevin Kline is being hassled by a gang when Danny Glover comes to tow his car (saving him). The gang leader challenges Danny G. and shows him his gun in his belt. Danny G.'s character says - "I know. If you didn't have a gun, we wouldn't be having this conversation" - to which the gang leader replies - "THAT's why I have a gun - you don't have no gun, you don't get no respect."
Of course, this equalization/unfair factor is exactly why I want law-abiding citizens to have them.
Sep '10
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Once again the left is making an emotional appeal and the right is responding with logical arguments. The NRA is seeing its membership rise because people FEEL this organization will increase their security. If the right will stop with all the logical arguments and simply frame this a elite journalist, elite politicians and elite liberal academics all of whom are protected by armed guards, trying to take away the ordinary man's/woman's most effective means of self defense they have a winning issue.
Mar '11
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Agree completely, liberal jim. Excellent point. People on the right - or in the middle, for that matter - have to learn to frame the message to hit emotional hot buttons and "make it stick". Must be sound-bite-ready.
Mar '11
Re: Let's Start by Asking the Right Questions
Eeyore
Water Chestnut: "Feminized schools and culture causing feelings of isolation and anxiety in young males?"
This comment belongs on the post below on women in the wilderness. Why should it matter to any male how many women are learning to read or going to school with him? It always makes me cringe when this subject comes up, and it comes up weirdly often.
Hair trigger much? My reading of what Jeff said involves the very real situation where a male child can graduate from high school without everhaving encountered a male teacher or administrator. Ya know, the whole "role model" thing. · 18 hours ago
There is that, yes. There is also the very real data showing the achievement has gone down for boys in every major way. They get 70% of all the failing grades, get into trouble and get diagnosed for ADD/ADHD medications at much higher rates than girls, do not graduate or get high grades or go on to college, etc. Almost 60% of all college students are female today - it used to be 50%. Any way you look at it, this is not good for either men or women.