Let Me Save You Time on Syria
After a day of trying to upload the rest of the videos and thinking about what I can do to present what limited information I have in some journalistically responsible way, I've reached my limit.
Let me put this to you simply. Assad is a monster. He is evil beyond comprehension. No one is going to stop him until he and everyone around him is dead. But you're out of your minds if you convince yourself the FSA is comprised of potentially friendly, liberal democrats. There's not a liberal democrat between here and the Horn of Africa, just trust me on this; they don't even know what those words mean, they just know that you have to say them if you want to have any hope of being saved by those weird but freakishly powerful Americans for whom the words "liberal democrats" are the magic elixer. There will be no friendly, moderate, secular regime in Syria, ever, and the first thing the FSA will do if anyone helps them is slaughter Alawites and Christians. Everyone knows it, and at this point, who could possibly be surprised and who could blame them. They hate the world in this descending order, with allowances for overlap: Shia, Jews, Christians, Iran, America, Israel, Russia, Turkey. They'll probably hate each other, too, soon enough.
The only options here are unbearably awful and unspeakably awful. There's no happy outcome. The United States remains the only country in the world with anything like the military power to change this situation in a meaningful way, and nothing but military power will affect it, and the US isn't going to use it. Our economy is in the tank, we're tied down around the world, we're hamstrung by Russia and Iran. We're done with this region; we're not even interested.
We will be blamed for not intervening, just as we were blamed for intervening in Iran and Iraq, and everyone will forget that both intervening and not intervening are moral choices; and the US was never presented--ever--with a choice between supporting good and supporting evil in this part of the world, just between supporting evil and supporting slightly-less-evil. In a choice between supporting evil and supporting slightly less-evil, slightly-less-evil equals good. That's the real world.
America is a democracy, and you can't get innocent, naive democrats like Americans, people who have never seen evil in their entire lives outside of the movies, to get behind the use of military force to create "slightly less evil," so you tell them they're fighting for liberal democracy like the kind they enjoy and for which they--rightly--feel grateful. When they find out the truth, that they were sent to defend slightly-less-evil, they become disillusioned and withdraw from the world, sometimes for decades. The world doesn't improve because of that, no matter what anyone thinks.
So, yeah, they're Islamists, not the shy flower of the Scottish Enlightenment, but they seem to have some interest in democracy, and they talk about the Turkish model, which I'm sure they don't understand, but which, if it means to them, "Islamic and democratic," is probably a good thing. Maybe if you could get enough UN peacekeepers in there fast enough after Assad falls, you could prevent some of the slaughter of the minorities that would otherwise ensue. Maybe you could get a functional state up-and-running fast enough that Syria doesn't become the Somalia of the Levent, maybe not.
The risk right now to Syria's neighbors, if it tries to help, is extreme: Assad holds the PKK card, it has huge stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. The regime is going bankrupt, at the very least there will be floods of refuges if this continues, Turkey certainly can't absorb them. The Russians would be perfectly happy for every man, woman and child in Syria to be tortured and killed so long as nothing gets between itand its warm water base at Tartus. The French and the British will make very stern noises, but what are they going to do. UN? Useless. Arab League? Useless. GCC? Useless.
Meanwhile, those kids are dying. I've met some of them, Ilhan has met many more, and they're kids who have been pushed into radicalism because they're going to be killed tomorrow, so you better well hope there's a better life on the other side. It's that simple, really.
The only plan I can think of that might have a hope of working is to ask Turkey to accept as many refugees as necessary--with our financial help if needed--and for Turkey publicly to flood arms over the border in the hope that this breaks the Assad forces' will and prompts massive defections. Ilhan thought that was plausible. Assad and his closest intimates should be offered a nice place to retire, quickly. Istanbul or Paris would be fine; London might make Asma, Rose of the Desert feel more at home. Resettle the Druze to Israel and the Alawites to Iran. Pour in aid to reconstruct the place. It won't happen, the US economy's a mess. On the plus side, losing Syria will be a terrible blow to Iran. That's the only plus side.
9. "They're not happy with you guys ... I do believe that the US has to show that it is with the people. OK, a lot of statements are coming out, but no body cares about statements about now, You hear. over and over, the US doesn't care about us. Now is a good time to change this perspective."
10. Ilhan tries to answer your specific questions:
Ilhan will have a log-on tomorrow and may be able to answer any further questions you have.
Glad I was able to brighten your day.
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Comments:
Apr '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
I agree with Claire there are no good guys to choose form in this region or even the world. As much as I love America and as strongly as I will defend her and here options, America has often chosen to do many very despicable things or to allow many despicable things to happen. It is healthy for us to acknowledge this, and remember it when look at the world. We may be better than Assad (a lot better) but we are not saints either.
The the Arab world is run by dictators, who oppress their own people and then try to redirect their resentment out against other nations. These dictators are our allies or our enemies, but none of them can ever be our friends. The only hope the Arab world has to join modernity, and thus the only hope we have of being at peace with that region of the world, is for the dictatorships to fall and their people to prosper. We have no guarantee a democratic Syria will be a friend, but we know Bath Syria is an enemy.
Continued...
Apr '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Resumed...
My hope for democracies does not come from the fact that a democratic government and people will always do good. No, democracy does not guarantee that. We need look no further than our own troubled history to know this. What democracy gives to people is the ability to change and become better, and have that change reflected in their laws. Democracy is not a cure for bigotry, hate, and violence, but it is necessary for the cure to succeed.
I doubt either the president or any republican nominee will bring up the need for action against Syria. For we Americans are weary of once again performing a hard and thankless task. Yet, so many things that must be done are done without thanks. I do not know if we have the strength to act even if we should find the will, or what actions would be most effective. But, at least we we must not avert our eyes from seeing the truth or fear to speak it.
Apr '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Thank you so much for this post. I won't stop caring for the people, but I'll feel less guilty.
Jul '10
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
The only plan I can think of that might have a hope of working is to ask Turkey to accept as many refugees as necessary--with our financial help if needed--and for Turkey publicly to flood arms over the border in the hope that this breaks the Assad forces' will and prompts massive defections.
Sounds about right to me, Claire.
But if we're willing to bother shouldn't we also press (and offer financial support to) Jordan & Iraq? If not, why?
We're broke. We can't pay for our own obligations, let alone this. We will probably lose support in the region if we engage.
Yet, to help people in dire need and potentially give Iran a couple of black eyes through a third party or three... that is worthwhile.
Oct '10
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
So, bottom line – Syria is experiencing a sectarian insurgency. It matters not what we do – the bloodletting will unfold along sectarian lines. Why should we get involved? We invaded Iraq and found ourselves the proud owners of a sectarian insurgency. What good did that do us? Not, what good did it do Iraq? What good for us? When you are borrowing $.43 of every $1 you spend, you actually have to demonstrate some return on investment. Even, that is, when you are (because everyone keeps telling themselves it’s so) “the world’s only superpower.” We stimulated and took sides in a sectarian insurgency in Afghanistan and now are pouring blood and treasure into those high desert sands while “negotiating” the return of the horrid band of medieval psychopaths we initially displaced. And the good this has done us? Someone, please, paint me the word picture that conveys our “success” at intervening in the affairs of mid-east despots. If they get close to harming Israel, squash them like maggots. Otherwise, there’s nothing we can do (nor should do) to prevent them from killing one another. God help me, but Ron Paul makes more sense with every passing day.
Jan '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
We can't turn lead into gold but we can turn sand into glass.
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
I won't delete this, but I will call attention to your use of the word "maggots" and ask you, in turn, if you can find a single significant historical instance of something good ensuing from a description of human beings as "maggots." Or, for that matter, the description of a large category of human beings as "parasites," "vermin," or "germs."
Apr '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I won't delete this, but I will call attention to your use of the word "maggots" and ask you, in turn, if you can find a single significant historical instance of something good ensuing from a description of human beings as "maggots."
The collapse of the Soviet Empire?
I'm not claiming any direct relationship, and certainly no personal heroism, but we were called maggots by the drill instructors who trained us for war (and against whom we breathed under-voiced 'ate-up lifer maggot' imprecations).
{Don't bother to point out that in this case it was the relatively good guys who garnered the appellation; I'm merely offering the single example for which you asked.)
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Glenn the Iconoclast
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I won't delete this, but I will call attention to your use of the word "maggots" and ask you, in turn, if you can find a single significant historical instance of something good ensuing from a description of human beings as "maggots."
The collapse of the Soviet Empire?
I'm not claiming any direct relationship, and certainly no personal heroism, but we were called maggots by the drill instructors who trained us for war (and against whom we breathed under-voiced 'ate-up lifer maggot' imprecations).
{Don't bother to point out that in this case it was the relatively good guys who garnered the appellation; I'm merely offering the single example for which you asked.) · 13 minutes ago
Would you agree that there's probably an important difference between the Full-Metal-Jacket use of these words (so to speak) and these words when they enter popular political discourse?
Oct '10
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I won't delete this, but
It is scandalously inaccurate and outrageously unfair of you to suggest that a reference to how one would fight a war (with overwhelming force) is actually vile nomenclature for an entire class or race of people. In no way did I provide “a description of human beings as ‘maggots.’" That’s damnable slander.
It may have been unnecessarily vitriolic rhetoric, which does me no great credit. But it has absolutely nothing to do with despicable racist labeling, something all decent human beings abhor. The fact that I did not do that ought to preclude me from having to explain that it was neither my actual statement, nor my purpose, nor some subtle meaning covertly embedded there.
This is no different from Newt Gingrich poking fun at Obama’s singing, only to have Rachel Maddow denounce him as a racist for his alleged reference to minstrel shows . . . a bizarre and unfounded association that nevertheless plucks the strings of emotion to great effect. And it successfully shuts off debate on the real issues that Rachel doesn’t want to take place.
Has it come to this here at Ricochet too?
Apr '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Glenn the Iconoclast
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I won't delete this, but I will call attention to your use of the word "maggots" and ask you, in turn, if you can find a single significant historical instance of something good ensuing from a description of human beings as "maggots."
The collapse of the Soviet Empire?
I'm not claiming any direct relationship, and certainly no personal heroism, but we were called maggots by the drill instructors who trained us for war (and against whom we breathed under-voiced 'ate-up lifer maggot' imprecations).
{Don't bother to point out that in this case it was the relatively good guys who garnered the appellation; I'm merely offering the single example for which you asked.)
Would you agree that there's probably an important difference between the Full-Metal-Jacket use of these words (so to speak) and these words when they enter popular political discourse?
Yes. [Emphatic] yes.
In the context of total war, is it necessary to demonize the enemy? And is it always necessary to fight total war?
Nov '10
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
The story has vanished from the MSM because liberalism is solipsistic to its core: there is no way, really, to cultivate the grandiose illusion of control by placing responsibility for this situation on the US; no way to reliably certify the victims as our victims and so validate liberal moral credentials. Ergo: no story.
Claire: Ilhan says, "You hear, over and over, 'the US doesn't care about us.' Now is a good time to change this perspective." But he doesn't say how this perspective could be changed. How, then?
Apr '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize I was butting in on a private fight - just now saw HVT's response - it came in while I was composing. I withdraw.
Sep '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
It's on the front pages this morning here in the UK. The massacre currently under way in Homs.
Oct '10
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
“Private”? I wish I’d been offered an opportunity to privately address Ms. Berlinski’s concerns prior to being quite publicly slandered.
Aug '10
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
The big lie depended on the use of repetitive slurs , as Goebbels turned the German people into a paranoid mass. The choice of vermin descriptions added to the concept of something to exterminate, but the underlying effect was to convince a people of another people's intrinsic evil. The vermin words, the economic imagery and cultural fortresses being assaulted were mere underpinnings in the campaign to establish a dark force. Using religion and mythology he whipped up a frenzy of hate against an unarmed,defenseless segment of the population. You and HVT appear to arguing about shades of bad, but you framed the argument early in with the "monster...evil beyond comprehension..". If these evil monsters are somehow manipulated into unleashing a couple of WMD at Israel by the mad puppeteers in Tehran, then can we turn the phraseology of genocide back onto the perpetrators ? As the vermin class expands to yet another group that Obama and Jarrett yearned to coax into their circle , do we extend the discourtesy of the word "quisling" to our own leaders ? Just asking as I am still puzzled by Glenn beating a hasty retreat.
Oct '10
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Lovely. Now I’m being irrationally lumped together with others and incoherently compared to Joseph Goebbels. If only I was a doctor we could throw Mengele into the mix! All this from a flagrantly inaccurate rendering of my actual words, which remain precisely where they were for all to see. Why let facts get in the way of a great narrative? Kafka and MSNBC rule!
On the plus side, this has turned from insulting to just plain humorous. Please, by all means … let the demonization continue. As we all know and I must now fully concede, once you bring the Nazis into the argument it’s automatic victory for your side! Game over. You Win. I’m off to Nuremberg for a big rally. If only I could find my white hooded cloak . . . it’s here somewhere.
Mar '11
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I won't delete this, but I will call attention to your use of the word "maggots" and ask you, in turn, if you can find a single significant historical instance of something good ensuing from a description of human beings as "maggots." Or, for that matter, the description of a large category of human beings as "parasites," "vermin," or "germs." · 5 hours ago
Claire, you know I love you (and if you don't ... well... this is awkward..) but this seems pretty unfair to HVTs.
I think "like maggots" refers to the style of squashing, not those to be squashed. This is one of those phrases one picks up as a small boy that somehow hangs on into adulthood but never means more than that little boy understood it to mean.
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
If you want a real discussion about the issues--which I do--let's agree (as apparently we do) that because of its historical associations, the word "maggot" here constitutes "unnecessarily vitriolic rhetoric." It's inappropriate, if nothing else, for Ricochet, where we eschew vitriolic rhetoric.
I don't want to see this thread descend into a faux-debate about whether I called you racist or genocidal. I didn't. I suggested that this word doesn't have a great track record.
Re: Let Me Save You Time on Syria
HVTs
Lovely. Now I’m being irrationally lumped together with others and incoherently compared to Joseph Goebbels. If only I was a doctor we could throw Mengele into the mix! All this from a flagrantly inaccurate rendering of my actual words, which remain precisely where they were for all to see. Why let facts get in the way of a great narrative? Kafka and MSNBC rule!
On the plus side, this has turned from insulting to just plain humorous. Please, by all means … let the demonization continue. As we all know and I must now fully concede, once you bring the Nazis into the argument it’s automatic victory for your side! Game over. You Win. I’m off to Nuremberg for a big rally. If only I could find my white hooded cloak . . . it’s here somewhere. · 14 minutes ago
At least you've got your sense of humor back. Come on, HVTs. Relax.