Legalism & Upward Mobility
Elizabeth Wurtzel just emailed me a list of some prominent bar exam failers -- which got me thinking, probably tangentially to her point, that there really are a lot of people who pass through law school. WikiAnswers indicates that the US has the largest number of lawyers by far:
Country Lawyers Population People/Lawyer
US: Lawyers: 1,143,358 Pop: 303MM P/L:265
And that's excluding people who fail the bar exam. But in a legalistic society like ours, a law school education and a legal degree are a fine (if often expensive) way of getting ahead in the world. They provide a certain credential, a certain way of seeing the world. They put you in a certain circulation: not necessarily in 'the elite', but in a certain professional class -- one that, indeed, is growing way too large really to count, I think, as elite. Our legalistic way of viewing the world isn't confined to our lawyers. I wish I could say this is a great thing, but I'm not at all sure. Liberal bias in law school is an issue that might be so important because of the way its prejudices are compounded and directed by 'legalistic' -- as opposed to lawyerly, in the judicious sense -- thinking.
- Comment (15)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (3)
Comments :
Jun '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
In many cases, it probably just means that you're not a generalist by nature.
May '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
James - It's just not passing through law school. When I was in college, there were law courses designed for every discipline. As a broadcasting type I was required to take a course on Mass Media law that covered everything from libel to FTC cases in advertising.
I guess they felt like the best thing they could do for us was teach us to think like the people who might sue us.
May '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
the US has the most litigious society on the planet by a huge margin. One of the ways that other countries make national health "work" is that there are no huge class action suits - Note caveat Today's London Telegraph headlines huge cuts in national health service and repeatedly sites use of rationing.
It would be nice if a more productive livelihood were to dominate - but as long as the society places such abundant riches in this sector, it will continue to attract the best & brightest............and the others.
To be honest. as a professional expat who works every once in a while in the states, this is one aspect of working in the US vs virtually everywhere else that is really not fun.
Jun '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
The best & the brightest.......and the parasites.
Nursing students are taught relevant law, and I'd guess that most professions do so as well. When I worked in advertising, we were not allowed to accept a contract with a fax signature from lawyers because they never paid the bill unless the inked signature could be produced. Often they blew that off, too. Many law journals no longer bill for advertising --- payment is required in advance. The lawyers were not paying the bills, so now all advertisers must be treated like scoundrels.
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
Speaking as one of the 1,143,358, there's no question that there are too many lawyers in the US.
The legal mindset deals with certainties, not fuzzy things like manners and ethics. Normally, our culture would supply the fuzzy stuff. But as American culture (at least the urban variety) has become untethered from any sense of right and wrong, we turn to the lawyers to set boundaries. That's not a good thing. For a modern American lawyer, nothing is really wrong unless it is legally actionable. So whereas people used to be polite because it was the right thing, now they're polite only to the extent they need to avoid liability for sexual harassment, hate speech, etc.
Likewise, the modern American lawyer demands that anything truly good must be guaranteed by the Constitution. Thus, we dream up penumbral emanations to suit our pet issues.
I don't, however, think that America's litigation machine is a product of the sheer number of lawyers in the US. Other English-speaking countries have essentially the same tort system as we do, but they do smart things like no contingency fees, and "loser pays."
Jul '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
Lawyers are as much a part of America's 'culture' as turkey for Thanksgiving. Really, at the time of the 13 colonies, there were more lawyers in those colonies than there were in London. So, live with it.
I think lawyers, like the 2d amendment, are part and parcel of American's insistence upon equality of every citizen.
But, in our time, many lawyers think they can establish their own rules of engagement on the battlefield, and then there are the score of other problems the US has noted, like 'tort law' with the loser getting off scott free of any fees.
Jun '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
heathermc: Lawyers are as much a part of America's 'culture' as turkey for Thanksgiving. Really, at the time of the 13 colonies, there were more lawyers in those colonies than there were in London. So, live with it.
I think lawyers, like the 2d amendment, are part and parcel of American's insistence upon equality of every citizen.
But, in our time, many lawyers think they can establish their own rules of engagement on the battlefield, and then there are the score of other problems the US has noted, like 'tort law' with the loser getting off scott free of any fees. · Jul 25 at 11:29am
The problem with lawyers is that like the carpenter with a lone hammer who sees only nails, lawyers see only the law and everything becomes a matter for the law. The latest ludicrous manifestation of this is the financial bill recently passed into law. Since risk is, well, risky, it must be managed by the law. Clearly, even a lawyer must see this as stupidity on stilts. Then again, I'm not a lawyer, thank God!
May '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
I agree with Adam. Note that most of the issues we object to here, and those described regularly at Walter Olson's Overlawyered.com, are caused by intrusive government (regulatory apparatus) plus the plaintiff's bar.
However, our commercial (contract) law system is the envy of the world- and when you do business in the US, you know that the enforcement is predictable, as compared with, say, Istanbul construction deals.
Jun '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
Forgive me if I suggest that Conrad Black might have a different opinion of the vaunted commercial leagal system bruted about as the envy of the world.
May '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
One while traveling in Italy, I walked onto a beach in Positano wanting to rent a boat for a few hours, just to take a look up and down the coast. I went to the small dock, ready to present my credit card and passport, and to sign various release forms.
"Could I rent that little boat?" I asked.
"Yeah," the attendant said. "One hour?"
"Two hours."
"Okay. Here's the key. Take that one. Just pay me when you get back."
No liability waiver or option for insurance, and when I got back I could buy a beer and drink it on the actual beach, as opposed to a cordoned off area where a licensed vendor took responsibility for monitoring me on pain of losing his ability to sell the stuff.
What a wonderful day -- and one that, in various ways, American lawyers have helped to make impossible here.
Jun '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
Avoiding liability has been forced to the number one position in a list of concerns facing most American businesses, completly distorting their mission. As Mr. Freedman states, "For a modern American lawyer, nothing is really wrong unless it is legally actionable." This is chilling.
My teenaged daughter's band had to form a LLC and issue the members K-1s. How absurd! Americans are being crushed by layers of bureacracy and fees and fear being ruined as lawyers circle like vultures waiting to exploit the slightest slip up.
May '10
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
Cas Balicki
Forgive me if I suggest that Conrad Black might have a different opinion of the vaunted commercial leagal system bruted about as the envy of the world. · Jul 25 at 12:59pm
What you are describing is government, not our commercial contract law.
And what Conor is describing is pure market economics.
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
Take this and run with it, Heather. Tell us more. That's a fabulously contrarian argument you might be sitting on.
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
I once took a seminar from Daniel Bell, one of the great American sociologists and author of the Post-Industrial Society, on American exceptionalism. I asked him whether the excessive number of lawyers and litigation in the United States was a bad feature of American exceptionalism.
Bell agreed that all the lawyers made America exceptional, but to my surprise, he said they were a positive not a negative. Lawyers and litigation showed that Americans cared more about, and fought harder for, their rights. This litigation would lead to more clearly defined property rights, he said, over information and virtual goods (like software), which would lead to more investment in education and start-ups. It would produce more dynamism in the American economy compared to those in Europe and Asia.
He said this in class in 1989! It was a great class, his last at Harvard (I think) with only 8 people in it.
Another nugget of his was why the United States had never had a serious socialist or communist party. He said it was because the Constitution, namely the separation of powers, federalism, and rights, made it difficult for the government to engage in radical social or economic changes.
Re: Legalism & Upward Mobility
I'm coming late to this conversation, but I'm surprised to see that no one has yet mentioned Judge Laurence Silberman's two brilliant essays on this very topic:
Peter interviewed Judge Silberman on Uncommon Knowledge. Skip to 23:30 to hear them discuss this topic.