Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
ESPN's College Game Day devoted most of today's show to the scandal at Penn State. It often cut to a reporter standing in front of Joe Paterno's home, where Paterno will watch the game for the first time since he began coaching at Penn State in 1965. At one point, Game Day showed two men, en route to the game, kneeling and saying a prayer in front of Paterno's house.
Penn State fans, who usually wear all white on game day, instead are wearing dark blue in tribute to the victims of the scandal.
Game Day usually ends the show with charismatic anchor Lee Corso donning the head gear of one of the mascots of the top game of the day. Instead, he did that earlier, and the show cut to the Penn State stadium, where the Penn State players walked the center of the field to say a prayer for the victims. What followed was one of the most touching moments ever in college football: Their opponents, the Nebraska Conrhuskers, walked to the center of the field and joined them.
Paterno, one of the all-time great coaches, must now watch his legend tarnish. After he learned that his assistant coach at least appeared to be a pedophile, he told his superiors. However, he never told the police. As the scandal unfolded, he said, "I wish I had done more."
Most people are familiar with Barry Goldwater's famous line, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." But at least as important may be his next line, "Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
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Jan '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
katievs
What you should do with it is take it as indicating that there may be more going on than you'd realized in the order you love and admire. It doesn't mean they're all guilty.
Then why make such a broad statement? You "heard it on good authority some pretty bad stuff about the Jesuits." That's a statement about the Jesuits as a whole, or most of them. Of course the Jesuits aren't perfect. Thank you, but you don't need to alert me to that fact.
I assert that the vast majority are good men, who deserve better than to be portrayed as participating in "bad stuff." They deserve better than that.
Jun '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KC Mulville
Paul A. Rahe
Yes, there is. They were all party to hushing the thing up in 1998 -- except, of course, McQueary.
Except no one told McQueary to shut up. Paterno passed on the allegation. He didn't hush it up. First rule of a cover-up, you'd think, would be to tell the accuser to shut up. They didn't.
Well, unless McQueary has spoken about the rape he witnessed beyond what he revealed in his Grand Jury testimony I don't think you can conclude that he was or was not told to refrain from mentioning it. There's nothing in the Grand Jury report specifically that discusses this. Given the number of locker room shower episodes, a sodomy by Sandusky on another victim witnessed by a janitor and incidents that detectives and the University Police were aware of, it seems improbable that Paterno and other members of the football program weren't aware of Sandusky's behavior. Many more questions need to be asked, for example why Paterno decided not to have Sandusky succeed him as head coach. What were Paterno's reasons? Much more is sure to come out on all of this.
Edited on November 14, 2011 at 3:47amJan '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
Believe it or not, I entirely agree. More questions need to be asked. That's what I'm holding out for.
Frankly, the worst thing that could happen for Paterno is for Sandusky to take a plea, meaning all of these questions will be buried. Then all we'll have is speculation.
On the other Penn State thread, the one started by Peter Robinson, gobluesasquatch argues that Sandusky wasn't forced out because of the accusations, but because Paterno and Penn State thought he was spending too much time on his foundation and no time on football. He (gobluesasquatch) makes a persuasive case, I think, and it just adds to my doubts about the whole thing.
As I've said from the beginning ... I don't like verdicts based on grand jury testimony. I want to hear a trial. If their answers don't hold up then, fine, I'll pay for the tar and feathers myself.
May '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
Lately I have been teaching my grandson (who lives with us) that one of the challenges that many young people face is that they are making a decision even when they do not realize they're making a decision. In his case: That a decision to get a tatoo today my be an unwitting decision not to become a banker 20 years from now.
But the Penn State case makes it abundantly clear that kids are not the only ones who face this dilemma; normally responsible older adults do, too. And the simple, if sometimes frustrating, fact is that decisions have consequences. Always. And sometimes the simplest (in)decision can wipe out a stellar reputation in a single swipe.
That's just the way life is sometimes.
Jun '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
After the 1998 investigation where Sandusky admitted over the phone to the victim's mother that he bear hugged the boy while the two showered together, with police detectives listening in, and promised not to do it again...there's this from Reuters:
"A year after the investigation, in 1999, Sandusky retired as Penn State's defensive coordinator. At his last home game he received a standing ovation from nearly 100,000 fans crammed into the Nittany Lions' stadium. But at a farewell gala held for Sandusky at around that time, several attendees said they were struck by Paterno's absence.
Requests for comment from Paterno, directed through his son, were not answered."
May '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KC Mulville
Then why make such a broad statement? You "heard it on good authority some pretty bad stuff about the Jesuits." That's a statement about the Jesuits as a whole, or most of them. Of course the Jesuits aren't perfect. Thank you, but you don't need to alert me to that fact.
KC, what would you say if a few years back, before the truth had come to light, I had said that I'd heard there was bad stuff going on in the Legion of Christ? In fact, I did say it. Legion loyalists back then accused me of "being negative" and attacking a work of God. Turns out the truth was worse than the Legion's worst critics had claimed.
My statement indicts neither the Jesuits "as a whole" nor "most of them". It simply says what I am convinced with good reason is true: that there is a lot of serious bad stuff going on in that order.
No one needs to tell anyone that a given group isn't perfect. We all know that from the fact that they're human.
Jan '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
OK - I'll bite.
Like what?
Jun '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KC Mulville [edited]
Frankly, the worst thing that could happen for Paterno is for Sandusky to take a plea, meaning all of these questions will be buried. Then all we'll have is speculation. [remainder edited for space]
I don't know if that would apply to everyone or anyone who has knowledge of Sandusky's crimes. Others may be free to discuss the matter and reveal what they know or witnessed. And if Sandusky takes a plea that doesn't prevent other victims from coming forward beyond the one's that he's been accused of molesting. And as has been noted earlier, the odds, unfortunately, are that more victims will come forward since pedophiles tend to abuse a large number of children. Sandusky may have been at this for quite some time perhaps from the mid-70's even up to the time that he was arrested.
I'm curious how an in-depth and thorough investigation doesn't provide a disruption to the football program at Penn State. I would think investigators would want to interview every player and former players, coaches, trainers and everyone on the staff to find what they know or what they heard.
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KC Mulville
Paul A. Rahe
Yes, there is. They were all party to hushing the thing up in 1998 -- except, of course, McQueary.
Except no one told McQueary to shut up. Paterno passed on the allegation. He didn't hush it up. First rule of a cover-up, you'd think, would be to tell the accuser to shut up. They didn't.
Does that prove anything? No. But I say it's enough to stop a rush to judgment, to remember that this is only the grand jury report, not trial testimony refined by cross-examination, and to wait before we condemn Paterno.
Sorry, but this story doesn't add up. I'll wait. · Nov 13 at 5:36pm
Come now. Paterno passed on the information to the very people he knew had seen to hushing the 1998 incident up. I did not say that he hushed it up in 1998. I said that they did so -- with the support of a DA who was in the pocket of the university. To figure out the best way to engage in damage control, Paterno, the AD, and the Vice-President had to know the score.
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
Brian Watt: After the 1998 investigation where Sandusky admitted over the phone to the victim's mother that he bear hugged the boy while the two showered together, with police detectives listening in, and promised not to do it again...there's this from Reuters:
"A year after the investigation, in 1999, Sandusky retired as Penn State's defensive coordinator. At his last home game he received a standing ovation from nearly 100,000 fans crammed into the Nittany Lions' stadium. But at a farewell gala held for Sandusky at around that time, several attendees said they were struck by Paterno's absence.
Requests for comment from Paterno, directed through his son, were not answered." · Nov 13 at 7:02pm
This is telling -- very telling.
Sep '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
Paul A. Rahe
Brian Watt: After the 1998 investigation where Sandusky admitted over the phone to the victim's mother that he bear hugged the boy while the two showered together, with police detectives listening in, and promised not to do it again...there's this from Reuters:
"A year after the investigation, in 1999, Sandusky retired as Penn State's defensive coordinator. At his last home game he received a standing ovation from nearly 100,000 fans crammed into the Nittany Lions' stadium. But at a farewell gala held for Sandusky at around that time, several attendees said they were struck by Paterno's absence.
Requests for comment from Paterno, directed through his son, were not answered." · Nov 13 at 7:02pm
This is telling -- very telling. · Nov 13 at 7:21pm
Paul--I agree. And equally curious why no other school attempted to hire him at that point. Either a) no one was interested in his skills (unlikely); b) other schools believed he truly wanted to retire (also unlikely); c) Sandusky turned away any interest (certainly possible); or d) the other schools were warned off in some fashion.
May '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KC Mulville
OK - I'll bite.
Like what? · Nov 13 at 7:10pm
Not the point at all.
Jan '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
katievs Not the point at all.
Exactly. So why make the comment in the first place? That's not the kind of thing that you toss off casually.
Jul '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KaneCountyFarmboy
Paul A. Rahe
Brian Watt:
"A year after the investigation, in 1999, Sandusky retired as Penn State's defensive coordinator. At his last home game he received a standing ovation from nearly 100,000 fans crammed into the Nittany Lions' stadium. But at a farewell gala held for Sandusky at around that time, several attendees said they were struck by Paterno's absence.
Requests for comment from Paterno, directed through his son, were not answered."
This is telling -- very telling.
Paul--I agree. And equally curious why no other school attempted to hire him at that point. Either a) no one was interested in his skills (unlikely); b) other schools believed he truly wanted to retire (also unlikely); c) Sandusky turned away any interest (certainly possible); or d) the other schools were warned off in some fashion.
You know what else is telling? Sandusky wrote an autobiography.
Some weasels want to be caught. It's awfully depressing when it still takes more than a decade because said weasels are being protected.
May '10
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KC Mulville
katievs Not the point at all.
Exactly. So why make the comment in the first place? That's not the kind of thing that you toss off casually. · Nov 13 at 8:09pm
It wasn't casual, KC. It was in corroboration of what Prof. Rahe had written in this thread about a parallel case to the one we're discussing.
Jan '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
You're assuming what you're trying to prove. You're assuming that Paterno must have engaged in a 2002 conspiracy because you already assume that he engaged in a 1998 conspiracy.
Which still leaves the question why no one told McQueary to shut up. Unless you're assuming that Paterno did, but the only support you have for that assumption is that you need it so that your other assumptions remain standing.
As for me, I'm not so certain of any of it. Again, all of this is from a grand jury report, i.e., one side of the story, untested by cross-examination. I'd rather wait for more developments before I start pointing fingers.
Jan '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
But you didn't corroborate anything. You offered no proof, no evidence ... you didn't even offer an actual accusation. Just "bad stuff." You want listeners to give more weight to Paul's opinions about the Society ... based on what? Your assurances. But when I asked what those assurances were based on, you said that wasn't the point.
That's taking a shot at the Society without wanting to be challenged about it. Those men deserve more respect than that.
Jan '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
KC, I don't think whether McQueary was silenced or not is the linchpin of whether there was a cover up, but even if it is, I think one can read McQueary's actions as those of someone who was silenced. The fact is McQueary told only four people about the incident, his Dad, his boss, his boss's boss, and a PSU vice president. The latter two he only went to after being summoned. It's entirely possible that after meeting with both Paterno and the other two PSU officials they told him to keep things quiet. McQueary only broke his silence after other kids came forward and a larger criminal investigation was under way. McQueary isn't the one who blew the whistle. I think the evidence can just as easily be read that McQueary was told to shut up. Of course, as an ambitious young coach, he didn't really need to be told to shut up, he had every reason himself to preserve the program he one day wanted to coach. He probably only broke his silence to the authorities once it was clear the cat was out of the bag with regards to Sandusky's handiwork. Owning up to what he saw at that point is just self-preservation.
Edited on November 14, 2011 at 1:18pmMar '11
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
katievs
KC Mulville
katievs Not the point at all.
Exactly. So why make the comment in the first place? That's not the kind of thing that you toss off casually. · Nov 13 at 8:09pm
It wasn't casual, KC. It was in corroboration of what Prof. Rahe had written in this thread about a parallel case to the one we're discussing. · Nov 13 at 8:23pm
C'mon. Had someone made the same comment you made about one of your more favored institutions and called it corroboration, would you accept it as such? Or would you consider it a smear?
Re: Joe Paterno: Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice
Basil Fawlty
katievs
KC Mulville
katievs
· Nov 13 at 8:09pm
It wasn't casual, KC. It was in corroboration of what Prof. Rahe had written in this thread about a parallel case to the one we're discussing. · Nov 13 at 8:23pm
C'mon. Had someone made the same comment you made about one of your more favored institutions and called it corroboration, would you accept it as such? Or would you consider it a smear? · Nov 14 at 3:55am
Hold on! In cases like this, word gets out about systematic misconduct long before there is proof. Everyone associated with the institution who is directly involved has an interest in hushing things up. But people talk.
Word got back from the eastern front about what the Nazis were doing. Word got out about the seminaries that were, in effect, brothels. Word got out about the founder of the Legionnairies of Christ. Enthusiasts emphatically denied that the rumors could possibly be true. Katievs is plugged in. So am I. What we hear about the Jesuits gibes. Given what we know about the deep-seated clerical propensity for hushing things up, there is every reason to be exceedingly suspicious.