Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Anonymous sources familiar with the investigation into the Tucson rampage say that shooter Jared Loughner visited a number of websites to research the probability that a political assassin would be given the death penalty, as well as sites that explained the process and painfulness of death by lethal injection. Obviously, whatever he found on the web did not deter him from his crime.
Just as it's difficult, if not impossible, to understand what went on in Jared Loughner's mind, it's difficult to know if the prospect of the death penalty is a significant deterrence to others. There have been many contradictory studies of the deterrent effect of the death penalty over the decades. While there's no definitive answer, perhaps the most significant data is this: in 2009, states with a death penalty statute experienced 4.9 murders per 100,000 people, while states without the death penalty experienced only 2.8 murders per 100,000.
Deterrence is not the only rationale for the death penalty, of course. The other rationale is retributive justice: some crimes are so horrific that they cry out for revenge.
On the other side, death penalty opponents claim that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person outweighs any possible benefit to society; that the death penalty is cruel and archaic; and that it is applied in a racially-discriminatory manner.
I'm ambivalent on this issue. As a libertarian, I'm loathe to give the state any power beyond that absolutely necessary to execute its constitutional mandates. From that viewpoint, lacking firm proof that the death penalty deters crime would argue against execution.
I'm also sensitive to the horror of an innocent person being executed. I don't trust government to get much of anything right. When bureaucratic or judicial ineptitude results in an unjust result with regard to property, that's one thing. When it leads to the extinction of life, that's quite another.
However, the argument for retribution does appeal: some crimes, such as the home-invasion murder of a Connecticut doctor's wife and daughters are so vile that they do cry out for revenge.
I also wonder if the death penalty is really significant anymore. In years past, execution was swift and certain. Now, killers languish on death row for decades while their cases are appealed, making a mockery of the process.
If we stipulate that the death penalty does not deter, should we reconsider whether retribution outweighs the possibility - however minute - that innocent men might die in order to satisfy our desire for institutionalized revenge?
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Comments :
May '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
The whole case is very sad because Loughner so obviously had mental problems that likely could have been treated medicinally. At one point in a chat room he asked, "Is anybody else here always angry?" That pulls at my empathy strings bigtime--can't help it.
Very hard for this death-penalty advocate to know what's right in this case.
Jun '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
But which is the cause and which the effect? Does this show that the death penalty reduces the murder rate, or does it merely show that people in states with higher murder rates are more likely to favor the death penalty?
Nov '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
"Death row inmates in the U.S. typically spend over a decade awaiting execution. Some prisoners have been on death row for well over 20 years." - Bureau of Justice Statistics
These stats are most likely responsible for the impotency of the death penalty and its' inability to deter heinous crime. With all due respect for the horror of executing innocents, there must be a constitutionally sound legal response that can spare victims and taxpayers undue agony and expense in certain clear-cut cases (i.e. Jared Loughner, Karla Faye Tucker, Gary Gilmore, etc.).
May '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Is there a small-government argument for abolishing the death penalty? I'm not saying I'm ready to go there. And, of course, the anti-DP people are all Big GOV enthusiasts.
But still...
May '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
outstripp: Is there a small-government argument for abolishing the death penalty? I'm not saying I'm ready to go there. And, of course, the anti-DP people are all Big GOV enthusiasts.
But still...
"It costs too much" is one that I know of.
Dec '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Scott Reusser: The whole case is very sad because Loughner so obviously had mental problems that likely could have been treated medicinally. At one point in a chat room he asked, "Is anybody else here always angry?" That pulls at my empathy strings bigtime--can't help it.
Very hard for this death-penalty advocate to know what's right in this case. · Jan 27 at 5:06pm
One of the things we haven't heard much about is Ma and Pa Loughner. It just seems there were a thousand little things -- the excessive drug use, the loner obsessions, the attraction to extreme conspiracy theories -- even a somewhat attentive parent would have noticed something and restricted him somewhat. But it seems he had free reign and nobody cared what he did.
May '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
outstripp: Is there a small-government argument for abolishing the death penalty? I'm not saying I'm ready to go there. And, of course, the anti-DP people are all Big GOV enthusiasts.
But still... · Jan 27 at 5:49pm
Well, that's obviously not correct. I'm a small government advocate, reasonably conservative in nature, and entirely opposed to the death penalty.
I was going to stay out of this since I am just taking a quick break from the work that is piling up, and that keeps me from answering at length, but I certainly believe that there are good arguments against the death penalty. I would be surprised if I were the only one here that feels that way.
Jul '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
David Jones
outstripp: I
Well, that's obviously not correct. I'm a small government advocate, reasonably conservative in nature, and entirely opposed to the death penalty.
I was going to stay out of this since I am just taking a quick break from the work that is piling up, and that keeps me from answering at length, but I certainly believe that there are good arguments against the death penalty. I would be surprised if I were the only one here that feels that way. · Jan 27 at 7:01pm
I used to be a fierce advocate of the death penalty, simply based upon retributive justice. As I said in my original post, I'm now ambivalent.
This is difficult to explain - and may not even make sense - but watching countries like Iran and Pakistan execute people for adultery, homosexuality or blasphemy has made me feel that I don't want the state - even our constitutional state - to have that sort of power.
May '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Kenneth
I used to be a fierce advocate of the death penalty, simply based upon retributive justice. As I said in my original post, I'm now ambivalent.
This is difficult to explain - and may not even make sense - but watching countries like Iran and Pakistan execute people for adultery, homosexuality or blasphemy has made me feel that I don't want the state - even our constitutional state - to have that sort of power. · Jan 27 at 7:21pm
That sounds a lot like my thinking--and I did live most of my life as a strong advocate for capital punishment. For that matter, when a guy like Nidal Malik Hasan comes along, I can find myself having a hard time holding my position...
Nov '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Is there a correlation between what one thinks about the death penalty and how one feels about abortions; or, between what one thinks of the death penalty for criminals and how one thinks about expenditures for end of life measures?
In other words, are people who favor the death penealty in apropriate cases generally likely to favor or disfavor abortion on demand or not spending public resources for heroic end of life care?
I am interested to know what Riccochevians think.
Jul '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
David Jones
Kenneth
I used to be a fierce advocate of the death penalty, simply based upon retributive justice. As I said in my original post, I'm now ambivalent.
This is difficult to explain - and may not even make sense - but watching countries like Iran and Pakistan execute people for adultery, homosexuality or blasphemy has made me feel that I don't want the state - even our constitutional state - to have that sort of power. · Jan 27 at 7:21pm
That sounds a lot like my thinking--and I did live most of my life as a strong advocate for capital punishment. For that matter, when a guy like Nidal Malik Hasan comes along, I can find myself having a hard time holding my position... · Jan 27 at 7:50pm
Uh-oh...now you've got me going all the way over to cruel and unusual....
Jul '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
M1919A4: Is there a correlation between what one thinks about the death penalty and how one feels about abortions; or, between what one thinks of the death penalty for criminals and how one thinks about expenditures for end of life measures?
In other words, are people who favor the death penealty in apropriate cases generally likely to favor or disfavor abortion on demand or not spending public resources for heroic end of life care?
I am interested to know what Riccochevians think. · Jan 27 at 8:1
Anecdotally, I sense a reverse correlation among the most fervent anti-death-penalty crowd; they seem to be the types who would be pro-choice.
But let's not get into another abortion thread here....
Because I do favor the death penalty for thread jacking.
May '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
outstripp: Is there a small-government argument for abolishing the death penalty? I'm not saying I'm ready to go there. And, of course, the anti-DP people are all Big GOV enthusiasts.
But still... · Jan 27 at 5:49pm
"Capital punishment is a government program" (and therefore necessarily has many flaws in practice) has always struck me as the best argument in opposition and explains why it's far easier to argue in theoretical terms in favor and practical terms against.
The implications (for me) are to keep the practice exceedingly rare. The Connecticut guy, yes; a guy who shot a man in a robbery gone wrong, no. Loughner? Tough call.
May '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Kenneth
Anecdotally, I sense a reverse correlation among the most fervent anti-death-penalty crowd; they seem to be the types who would be pro-choice.
In the general population, yes. At center-right Ricochet, I'm not so sure, since for many here it's a Catholic thing, which is a pattern I noticed on another thread a while back.
Jul '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Scott Reusser
outstripp: Is there a small-government argument for abolishing the death penalty? I'm not saying I'm ready to go there. And, of course, the anti-DP people are all Big GOV enthusiasts.
But still... · Jan 27 at 5:49pm
"Capital punishment is a government program" (and therefore necessarily has many flaws in practice) has always struck me as the best argument in opposition and explains why it's far easier to argue in theoretical terms in favor and practical terms against.
The implications (for me) are to keep the practice exceedingly rare. The Connecticut guy, yes; a guy who shot a man in a robbery gone wrong, no. Loughner? Tough call. · Jan 27 at 8:42pm
Maybe we could vote on it, sort of like American Idol....think of the ratings!
Nov '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Kenneth wrote:
"I used to be a fierce advocate of the death penalty.[...] but I'm now ambivalent. This is difficult to explain - and may not even make sense - but watching countries like Iran and Pakistan execute people for adultery, homosexuality or blasphemy has made me feel that I don't want the state - even our constitutional state - to have that sort of power."
I share your ambivalence. The arguments for an against the death penalty usually focus on actual or potential offenders; however, those carrying out the penalty should also be considered, and not merely because they might apply misguided retributive criteria. Affording X the power to take away the life of Y runs the inherent risk that X will become brutalized in so doing. Sure, killing a despicable Y, of certain guilt, is arguably, even indisputably, both just and prudent. But can one systematically institute, organize, and carry out large-scale executions without jeoparizing one's humanity? Can fallible human beings bear such grave responsibility successfully? As Clint Eastwood put it in Unforgiven: "It's a hell of a thing to kill a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."
Edited on Jan 27, 2011 at 11:34pmMay '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Very little correlation. At bottom, it's a moral argument, not a fiscal one. Anyone eligible for the death penalty (in this country) has done something so awful that their life is forfeit and no longer valued.
Nov '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
Thank Goodness I turned in before I learnt the penalty for "thread-jacking"! But Kenneth is correct in that I veered off his topic as posted.
He analyzed the situation thusly:
Kenneth:
deterrence to others.
[R]etributive justice:
execution of an innocent person . . . .
[application] in a racially-discriminatory manner.
crimes . . . so vile that they do cry out for revenge.
If we stipulate that the death penalty does not deter, [does "our desire for retributive justice"] outweigh the possibility . . . that innocent men might die . . .? ·
[Emphases supplied.]
In the special case mentioned (that of Jared Loughner) the prisoner can be "innocent" only because of his mental state. Whatever one may think of the law, inability to form criminal intent long has been recognized as a defense.
On the general point, the question to me is one of proof: unless the proof is of such certainty as we have in Loughner's case, I am against imposing the death penalty.
If the prisoner is not insane and we have the certainty of the evidence available in his case, I think that death is "meet, just, and appropriate" and he ought to be despatched promptly.
Nov '10
Re: Jared Loughner and the Death Penalty
I don't believe this data is significant.
(http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state), Those numbers come from the FBI (available in the link). And, the data actually suggests that murder happens more in poor areas, which is not suprising to me.
Humans are incredibly complex. Societies are vastly, even more complex. And yet, the research into the death penalty (like most things dealing w/ people) is over simplified. It's mostly convict questionaires, and replications and basic comparisons with similar scenarios; which is hardly scientific.
My instincts tell me that the death penalty, like prison, isn't much of a deterrant to criminals. But, it is a deterrant to average Joe having a bad day; though Joe probably won't be deterred during a 'crime of passion'.